OK, so I had a different post planned today. It was super-duper smart and stuff. But I’ve been struggling with a chronic illness all week that makes my brain fuzzy, my thoughts loopy, and I can’t think much very well clearly. But then a great thing happened-the Church’s PR department released a statement on the Ordain Women movement, and everyone everywhere got really mad, so now I have something to write about and a great click-bait header. At least it sounds great in my mind-fuzz state. Now I will proceed to follow the Church’s PR example, and start a $%*^-storm of controversy.
Ha! Just kidding! I think a lot of the core issues have been and are being discussed. I will just write a few of my reactions to the maelstrom of online comments. To be fair, I should state that I am not really on-board with Ordain Women’s specific cause. I do want greatly expanded roles for women’s leadership, and for women’s spiritual power to be more explored and utilized. For now I’ll just have to supplement with Church history and some occasional paganism. However, I am VERY passionate about people asking sincere and important questions and fostering dialogue. So in that sense, I do support the OW movement, even if I don’t share their goal. Now with that disclaimer out of the way, here are some of my most puzzling questions I have for people who are really mad at Ordain Women.
1. What is your definition of a protest?
Is standing quietly in a line and singing hymns a protest? Because if it is, I have participated in SO MANY protests at the MTC. Man, we were just a hot-bed of social activism, waiting in lines, singing hymns, and not entering a building if we were asked to leave. Luckily our radical ways didn’t affect our worthiness, or there would have been a whole generation of missionaries who couldn’t serve. If that’s not your definition of a protest, then maybe holding up signs and shouting offensive things at Mormons on their way to worship the God they love is closer to what you had in mind. I know I would hate to be in the middle of that. Ironically the Church PR department seems fine “inviting” its own members to be in the middle of it; because apparently standing quietly in a line they weren’t invited to stand in is just as radical and offensive as mocking temple garments.
2. If the Church is really run by God, why are you so threatened by these different opinions?
It’s God’s church. Let them ask. If they’re dead-wrong, they will fade away. If you really believe that nothing can destroy it because it’s God’s church, then these women shouldn’t even be on your radar. But if they are , and you’re really upset about them, that signals that you DO find them threatening. So my guess is either you don’t really believe God can protect his church from some “wild” opinions, or they are triggering some fear or anger that is hard to look at or acknowledge. It’s OK, we all have people that do that to us. Just try and figure out why. Do you feel like they threaten your own testimony? Are you afraid of change? Are you afraid that they will influence people you love to share their opinions? Hey, it’s OK if you do. I’ve had these same reactions to different people in the church. Usually that’s a great opportunity for me to really talk with God about my own reactions so He can help me figure out what’s going on with me and what to do about it. Try it. The bonus is, it usually calms your anger towards those who were previously driving you crazy.
3. Why are you telling people in Ordain Women to leave the church?
I know not everyone who strongly disagrees with OW is saying this awful thing. However, this is the worst offender of all the comments in my book, and I have very strong feelings about it that I will detail:
Your difference is beautiful…just don’t remind the roses, or they’ll kick you out of the vase
One-If you believe the church is the one true way back to God, you are essentially telling people to leave God’s presence and never know their Heavenly Father because you disagree with their interpretation of the Gospel. If you don’t really believe the Church is the one way back to God, this is a little more forgivable as you’re just saying “Hey, find a better path that suits you.” But if you feel that strongly about it as a member, you probably need to make sure you are going out with the missionaries and letting every single investigator know that a new requirement to be baptized is that you don’t agree with the Ordain Women movement. In fact, just make a laundry list of reasons people shouldn’t join the church to hand out to the missionaries so we don’t run into this problem ever again, because everyone will be vetted before baptism, so as not to have “apostate” feelings or opinions pop up later.
Two-If these women and men do leave the church, what are you supposed to do when you get that conference talk about reaching out to less-active members and encouraging them to come back to church? You wanted them gone, but now you’re supposed to reach out to them, asked by the very apostles and prophets you thought you were defending earlier. Maybe if we stopped telling people to leave the church, we wouldn’t have quite so many less-actives on our ward rosters which, at the very least, would save the missionaries some work so they could actually be teaching new people the Gospel instead of re-finding the ones we’ve cast aside.
Three-How on earth does this fulfill any of the Church’s missions? This doesn’t proclaim the Gospel, redeem the dead, perfect the Saints or serve the poor. In fact you are actively hindering every one of those missions by telling people to leave. You’re telling them to not hear the Gospel, to not redeem their dead in the temple, and to not perfect themselves through covenants and worship. I suppose they can still serve the poor, so free pass on that, but if you haven’t noticed, we’re a small church compared to the world, and our job is huge. It’s not like we have talent to squander. In fact, I think it was God who said something about the worth of souls being great. So…let’s not get rid of something we know God thinks is great, hmmm?
Four-It’s not your Church. An argument I’ve frequently read against OW is, “This is the Lord’s Church, He will run it as He sees fit.” If you’re going to condemn OW by that, it’s a double-edged sword. Did he tell you to kick out His children and make them want to leave? I seem to remember something about “feed my lambs” not “throw out the sheep you think are smelly.” We don’t get to decide who is worthy. I honestly think encouraging people to leave the Church is a much worse sin than repeatedly asking the brethren a question in a way that makes others uncomfortable.
Five-It’s what Satan would do. Seriously, if you’re a believing Mormon and someone says “I got a message from someone telling me to leave the Church”, are you going to tell your friend that message was inspired by God or by an adversarial spirit? Does this suddenly change if the person is a member of Ordain Woman? Or gay? Or ultra-conservative? Or hard to get along with? I don’t believe it does.
OK, in conclusion, I just want to say that I both love and disagree with a LOT of people in the church, but they are my brothers and sisters. Those differences add to my own understanding when I allow them to. Being kind can be more important than being “right.” We’re family. We have to work through these tough things together with an understanding that our disagreements are not more important than our love for each other. We can still disagree and might even be frequently annoyed with each other, but healthy families learn to deal when they disagree; not throw each other out on the street.
If they can make it work, anyone can.
Laurel Sandberg-Armstrong
Laurel is an actress and voice-over artist who lives with her husband and toddler in a soon-to-be-lovely little duplex (we're working on it) just outside Minneapolis. Like many Mormons her age, she enjoys stuff and doing things, and hopes that she can get even better at stuff so she can be a professional doer of things. She also thinks she maybe should not have written her bio when she was so tired.
All posts by Laurel Sandberg-Armstrong
Bravo, Laurel. I couldn’t have said it any better!
Thanks Anna! Good to see you here!
Yeah, the MTC was a hotbed of protest when I was there too. Kind of like the UC Berkley of eastern Provo.
Well, OW group should shout for joy – at least, unlike the Who in Whoville, “someone” is hearing them & responding – pretty soon, things will change for the better (gender-role wise).
I hope!!!
Awesome and true …¥
I love this. Thank you so much for your witty and intelligent remarks. You’ve articulated exactly how i feel.
Love this! Thanks for articulating great responses.
Amen! I completely agree with you on so many points:
“I should state that I am not really on-board with Ordain Women’s specific cause. I do want greatly expanded roles for women’s leadership, and for women’s spiritual power to be more explored and utilized.”
–Yep, me too.
“Why are you telling people in Ordain Women to leave the church?”
–???????? Hastening the work, are we?
“I just want to say that I both love and disagree with a LOT of people in the church, but they are my brothers and sisters.”
–Yes, yes, and yes.
Thank you for this. 😉
I really appreciate your points here. I don’t agree completely with the Ordain Women movement, but I’m not hurt or offended or mad or crazy over their feelings. I’ve had some really great conversations with friends who do support their goals and it has really helped my understanding of the many, many different experiences that women have had in the church. I feel like those conversations are teaching me to be more compassionate and less judgemental, which is a change I am grateful for.
Me too. I have had the same experience with people who are both for and against OW, but who are not antagonistic about it. That’s why the antagonistic comments bother me so much. They’re not necessary! We can TALK about this!
All of this Ordain Women stuff could be easily solved if we had someone who could find out God’s opinion on matters of Church governance, who could then tell the members, one way or the other, what the Lord’s will is about ordaining women.
Found him! His name is Thomas S. Monson!
As President Uchtdorf mentioned, our church leaders are fallible and make mistakes. The First Presidency signed their names to the following:
Members who asked about people of all races getting the priesthood were pointed to statements like this and told not to question. However, that questioning led our leaders to ponder and pray more about the issue to see how much their own world-view and biases influenced their ability to receive further light and knowledge.
Thanks for this, Laurel. I have been quietly watching it all from the sidelines, trying to understand the positions of both sides and feeling like an outsider to both. I am encouraged by the dialogue and I have told friends on both sides that it doesn’t really matter who’s right or wrong, what matters is that we are talking to each other civilly and respectfully. Hopefully we are also learning about ourselves and the nature of God.
I’m a little confused. I’ve been following the issue a bit, and I’m not sure when the church publicity committee ever asked anyone to leave the church.
As far as I know, we *have* been talking about it, haven’t we? But we believe in prophets, and divine revelation; not a church run by democracy or majority rules. Yes, sometimes activism has lead to prophets asking the Lord for guidance. That’s how the Word of Wisdom came about, with Emma Smith getting sick of cleaning tobacco off the ceilings.
It seems to me more like the church, at least in official addresses of the issue, has been pretty clear and open, understanding even. Not that everyone on that side is perfect at it either, but I also see a lot of angry, albeit frustrated, women who aren’t listening or discussing anything either.
Agreed. What do you do when you ask a question and don’t get the answer you want? That’s where I think a lot of us are having difficulty with these women’s actions. We are not threatened by these women…dismayed, shaking our heads…yes!
See above
My husband wrote a letter that we believe should have been written to the OW group. I hope you don’t mind if I share it.
Dear Sisters of Ordain Women Movement.
We know many of you will be in Salt Lake near downtown Saturday evening of General Conference weekend. Priesthood Session starts at 6pm. Starting at 4:30pm in the Joseph Smith Building Ballroom, we would like to invite you to a buffet dinner. Sister whoosits, the general RS president wishes to host a dinner for you all, with a live feed coming in from priesthood session into the JS Memorial Building. After the session, the building will remain open until 11pm with snacks, ice-cream, internet access, and plenty of cozy sitting areas for small or large gatherings to discuss the messages heard during the session. If you wish, you may invite your spouses, but this evening will be for you sisters to enjoy each other company, listening (if you desire) to the messages from priesthood session.
If any of you are coming from great distance, we wish to host you as an overnight guest of ours in a nearby hotel.
We hope to maintain the reverence you sisters brought to temple square six months ago and hope this opportunity to gather, mingle, and listen to the words of men who have been called as leaders will inspire you to achieve great things. We believe in you so much. Welcome to Salt Lake City.
With Warm Regards,
The First Presidency.
Love this, Laurel! Thank you for articulating so many people’s feelings (including mine) with great wit and compassion.
This is so real I love it. Finally a balanced and respectful opinion of this topic. It’s great. Thank you so much. I’m sick of all the anger and hate from opposing views.
Respect.
Jason,
Thanks for your comment, Jason.
If you read-through again, I never accused the church of asking those in Ordain Women to leave. My post is specifically in response to comments that many OW supporters have received. If you want to talk about the goals of OW itself and whether you agree with them or not, you certainly can, but I might recommend a blog-post devoted solely to that. This is mainly about my bewilderment over the flurry of scared, angry and even cruel responses to Ordain Women. Disagreement I totally get. I don’t share their end-goals myself as I mentioned, but I am not threatened by what they’re doing.
For a little background on what you brought up however, from my understanding from Facebook friends in OW, OW has been trying to have dialogue with the Church, but the Church will only address them in press releases, which doesn’t really foster a healthy back and forth since all responses are being watched by everyone else. If there is dialogue going on, it is behind closed doors, so I do find it rather odd that they would be accused of interrupting a dialogue they were never invited to and didn’t even know was going on. There is anger and frustration on both sides, it’s true, and I don’t really view this as a “right vs wrong” issue like many seem to be trying to make it (hey, it’s easier to pick sides that way and dismiss the other side.) This is one of those discussions where I think it’s more important to listen to each other than just figure out who’s wrong and smash them (whether you think the Church or OW is wrong.)
Great post and a great bio. I loved it.
Dude, you totally lost me. Srsly. I read like 50 words and was totally, completely bewildered. I still have no idea on where anyone stands on this issue, and frankly couldn’t give a crap less, but it’s interesting to see all of this 1st-world rage about a topic that has nothing to do with helping or serving people.
Can you re-explain in hulk-speak? Me not like hurt head. Me need think clear.
I personally think the bigger question is… Do you believe in the church or not? I don’t believe god needs to be petitioned to make any change. We already know more books are to come! Forcing or harassing God to do anything is essentially putting our egos before Gods decisions. That is clearly a selfish act. We are taught to sacrifice, to not murmur, to know that it is all for our best!
I am a 45 year old woman who has recently divorced after 20 years of marriage to a struggling priesthood holder of the church. There are many things that I believe on men should have because there are things that only women have! Men are losing their “place” in today’s society and many men are giving up and throwing in the towel or are becoming lazy and letting us women do everything! But then we complain about it! Sometimes God knows better for us, my story is that I wanted to be a strong independent woman and after 20 years of fighting for that, my husband decided to let me do it all… and now I am…. And only now do I realize… I don’t want that!!!
I think there is a reason and we need to trust not fight what decisions have been made. We are not abused in the church, it is not encouraged or even allowed. There are all kinds of people that will take their preisthood authority to severe lengths! But that is a personal situation. Not something that should changes gods plan! Those women who have bad experiences I am genuinely sad for, but it is a process to get to belief, trust and obedience! Believe me, I have had to go through it and process it! I was inactive for 5 years specifically for a bishop telling me that it was because I would not follow the priesthood holder of my home (who was smoking and drinking at the time)… Long story short, I’m back and have had to pray and process A LOT of pain, hurt, not understanding things and a slew of other things! After all I’ve gone through I can tell you sincerely that regardless of what these women have gone through, they need to get on their knees and ask for peace and Learn “thy will be done”. Christ sacrificed his LIFE, went through pain unending! This is not the Catholic Church, we don’t bend according to popular demand! That is the beauty of this church. We are the beacon of the world! We don’t do it OUR way, we do it HIS way and we sacrifice to the end. I didn’t want to “bow down” to a man! I consider myself just as capable as any man. But I have FINALLY learned that we all have a purpose and God knows what that is, not me!
I don’t think the church listens to this group because there is nothing to discuss! It’s not an option unless God changes it and He would if it were time! It may not be time (if ever) and will not be rushed! There are so many obvious things this group needs to learn and it is part of their process to run into blocks. All the church can really do is love them! Discussing anything only gives the group a forum to complain! Don’t you see how that cannot even be allowed? The minute the church does that is the minute the church is accused of taking decisions into their own hands and is looked at as not true believers! It canNOT ever happen!
I personally know how they feel, but my struggles have finally brought me to understanding the gospel better and the purpose of why its set up this way ! I have such a deeper peace now! I wish them all the love I can give and hope they can find their peace soon! Anger and contention in their hearts is hurting only them and they need to find the peace! It does not come from changing Gods plan I assure you.
I am sorry that some people feel a need to attack someone that wasn’t attacking you! I genuinely hope everyone finds ghe peace we ALL deserve! I promise it come from changing from inside not the outside! <3
Karina-
I appreciate your comment, but I am curious if you read the article or if there was a misunderstanding of it. I am not debating Ordain Women’s claims and in fact, try to make it quite clear in the beginning that I do not share their goals, but I do share their belief in a right to ask questions.
As to some of your claims, I am happy you have found peace, and hope you continue to grow in that. I do not believe the women in OW have anger or contention in their hearts, as I know some of them. They simply are following the Spirit as they feel it directs them. Others may perceive that as being disrespectful, but only God knows their hearts, so I always think it wise to forgo judging them.
Anyway, if you would like to discuss the claims of OW, there are many other blogs on which you can do so. I am mainly addressing the way we interact with each other on this issue, and some of the more troubling responses I’ve seen.
God bless you.
I think you are confusing Love with acceptance. The world thinks you have to accept someone’s actions to love them. No! These women are our sisters and they had questions and it was good for them to go to the brethren to see what the Lord’s direction was on it. They are wrong to become a distraction (yelling or singing they are still a distraction) to a scared meeting for men. I can love them…but I cannot accept that action. Even as a mom my kids do things that are wrong. That doesn’t mean I love them any less but I don’t allow them to keep on that path so they will feel loved.
Thank you! Karina! I don’t agree with everything you said and commend you with your courage in sharing your story.
Sisters, what if the answer is actually “no” and is going to stay “no”? Reminds me of my kids… they believe if they keep pestering, the answer will change. This world has marginalized the role of men in families and homes. I’m pretty sure Heavenly Father isn’t going to let that happen to His church.
Eirehead,
I would appreciate it if you would actually read and respond to the article on this site before commenting. I am not debating OW’s claims either way as you are. In fact, if you would have read the beginning, you would have seen that I do not in fact support the goals of Ordain Woman, simply their right to ask and be treated kindly. This article is a response to the harsh criticism they have received and the way in which we engage each other.
I did read. My point was that “simply their right to ask” can become (has become?) an endless cycle that is distracting and destructive, in and of itself. When is it ok to say, “We’ve heard you, but the answer is still ‘no’.”?
Also, I don’t see an attempt to publicly disrupt Priesthood meeting as “simply their right to ask.” Why would you support that? I haven’t seen anything to indicate that anyone was telling these women to go find another church. I suspect, however, that repeated, public displays of defiance of church leadership will call their membership into question.
My real question to you is why you believe the church owes it to OW to let them set the terms for “dialog”? (Do you have teenagers? I didn’t think so…) There is a time to say, “‘Nuf said!” Bullying is bullying, even if it is done with a smile and a pretty website.
Asking tough questions isn’t heroic if you ask the same question repeatedly and reject the answers you get.
Jesus appeared first to two women after his resurrection. That wasn’t because they stormed the Last Supper.
You seem to be wanting to argue about a lot of things I was not addressing in this article (like men’s place in society and how many times people are allowed to ask a question), and seem very upset about Ordain Women. See question 2 that I address in the article. What are you so afraid/angry about? I think you should take that to the Lord, not the internet. I cannot give you the peace you seek, even if I agreed with you.
I’m sorry that I didn’t start off more clearly. I’m not angry at or afraid of OW. Like you, I can see that they are clearly very talented people and am sad that that they aren’t putting those talents to all kinds of wonderful initiatives. I actually agree with many things you said, however…
Even though you’ve said that you don’t support their particular agenda, you have drawn positive attention to their misguided attempt to change doctrine through activism. If you were my neighbor, I’d have stopped by with cookies or chocolate and said, “Hey, Laurel? Got a minute? Let’s talk about this blog post of yours. I’m worried about you, friend!” Even though we’re not friends, I do feel compelled to speak up. I don’t think you realize how dissimilar your example of singing “in protest” at the MTC is to what OW has organized for General Conference.
It is totally inappropriate for anyone to imply that someone should leave the church. Point well taken. The church isn’t an exclusive club with “bouncers” minding the doors! However, Priesthood leaders may, by authority and obligation of their calling, be forced to address some actions in order to protect others from being drawn off course.
Feel free to delete the thread if you think it’s off topic. Just be careful. You are bright and articulate, and have the power to persuade others. Stay anchored, and clearly supportive of your Priesthood leaders – all of them.
Laurel you can’t throw out your views and then not let other people express their thoughts. A lot f people were understanding of their right to ask but do not agree with the way they responded to that answer. We can love them but do not love and accept their reaction to the answer they were given.
Questioning members for years were told that “no” was going to stay “no” when asking about the racial priesthood ban. They were told the ban was given by commandment from God.
Additionally, the world hasn’t marginalized the role of men in families; individuals have frequently failed to live to their potential. Unfortunately years of male domination in society have made many men feel that if women have the same opportunities/roles (say being their boss) then men are being marginalized.
Additionally of interest, most people who feel men are marginalized in society tend to be conservative. When debating economic issues (especially regarding taxes) they argue that the economy is not a “zero-sum game” and that some people being more rich can generate previously nonexistent jobs and wealth. Ironically, they seem to feel that when it comes to gender that the labor market is a zero sum game and if any women get jobs then men lose them.
“It is more important to be kind than to be right.” Thank you Laurel for writing such an outstanding piece. I am like you, I don’t agree with the OW methods nor am I on board with their goals, BUT I do love that they are willing to put their faith to the test, as we learn to do in Alma 32, and ask for further light and knowledge. Most of them have a faith that God has more in store for His daughters and as we learned through the example of Joseph Smith Jr, God will answer WHEN we ask Him the right questions. Let’s not stand in their way when they are the ones willing to ask the tough questions. And worse, we should never vilify our fellow sisters b/c they are following the dictates of their conscience. I am proud to share your article on my FB page and have been pleased with how many of my friends liked it. May we never forget that it is more important to be kind than to be right.
I needed this today! I think the same way as you and love the way you laid it all out. Thank you so much!
Glad it did some good!
🙂
Thank you for this article. It’s like you put everything I was thinking into coherent words.
I am going to leave this conversation because it seems any comment not saying this is a wonderful article is attacked as not addressing the points in this article. I appreciate your concise thoughts on this issue and I will continue to love those sisters in the OW movement…that is the positive in this article but I will stand with the Prophet and the First Presidency on this issue and still shake my head that these women need to “protest” outside the conference center during Priesthood. Peaceful or not there will be camera crews and I am saddened that this will be the scene for the men of our church at their meeting.
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