Dear Friends, Colleagues and Fellow Laborers in Christ,
As most of you know, my ministry has had wonderful fellowship with many LDS scholars, teachers and members. We have all benefited greatly from these discussions. It is my sincere belief that a common apologetic can be established on a broader theological paradigm than has been previously discussed. We owe a great debt to the Evangelical scholars such as Ravi Zacharias and Dr. Mouw of Fuller Theological Seminary and other contributors for being willing to have the wonderful engagements they’ve shared with Dr. Millet and many other LDS scholars and general authorities. This has been a prayer of mine since 1971 when I was in regular fellowship with the LDS Church and other Christian bodies. Since that time, I’ve always felt the proper discussion between LDS Christians and the larger Christian Body has not yet taken place. We are all aware of the barriers that exist but not all members are aware of the diversity within the historical Christian Church which would give some accommodations to some LDS distinctions.
In my professional opinion, our communities of faith would be better served if we would simply go back to the ancient paths described by John Stott in his book about early Christian thought and practice. The term Credo simple means “I believe” and these Creeds have become frozen in time and used as test of fellowship. The Patristic witnesses simple did the best they could by creating these formulations to counter Aryanism and other Gnostic trends which were creating tensions in the historic Christian Church. In my area of Old Catholicism, not all of the ancient and modern churches agree on how many or which Councils are required to establish communion among our jurisdictions. Even the historical church in the Anglican and Armenian traditions affirm the Church of Jesus Christ is continually reforming which is good news for those who hold a reformed theological position as well. The basic Kerygma of 1 Corinthians 15 is I preach Christ and Him crucified and His resurrection on the third day. If one believes this statement, one qualifies as a Brother in Christ. There are many ancient basic creedal formations which are contained in the literature of the New Testament. These creeds indicate in the basic formulas that simple faith in the Son of God as well as knowing the Father who sent Him would result in a faith that would develop the believer clear into glorification as stated in 1 Peter 2:2 as well as the Johnine corpus. For further information, please review the work of John Rumann, the Lutheran scholar who explains how righteous was created in New Testament doctrine. The simple faith credos do not directly deal with doctrine of the origins of God nor open theism but a simple belief about God’s existence. Even the Roman Catholic catechism suggests there may be hints of pre-existence of all souls at least in the design phase prior to their birth. The doctrine of pre-existence of all souls obviously predates Christians origins but certainly was part of Christian ethos in the first century. Anyone who reads early Christian sources can’t escape the fact that there were many strains of Christian thought which later grew into separate traditions in Church History. The Nazareans held to tightly knit Hebrew Christian ethos. The Eastern Christians of the Marthoma tradition in India and China grew from a Syriac tradition. Other strains grew from the travels of the twelve Apostles. The simple Kerygma is what the entire Church of Christ has in common to this very day.
Obviously, Dr. Millet’s work. A Different Jesus? clears up many misconceptions that non-Latter Day Saints have about the Gospel and redemption as it’s preached in LDS circles. Likewise, the book by Richard Grant helps LDS Christians to understand the rest of the Christian Body. If LDS Christians were not a part of the Body of Christ, why would they be connected to so many Christian thinkers such C. S. Lewis and let us not forget, Dwight L. Moody who preached in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on two occasions?
As far as studies of the Godhead are concerned, the Odes of Solomon show the Holy Spirit was worshiped in the Eastern Church as being feminine and as a response to the God’s nature from the Hebrew Bible. See the Dance of Divine Wisdom which evolved from the Book of Proverbs, chapter eight. For more information, see the book The Eastern Churches by Stanley Burgess. As Burgess shows, the Eastern formula of Trinitarian theology is much more monotheistic than the divisions of Greek thought demanded in the West. The Eastern Fathers, Burgess states, including Athanasius who gave Christianity its interpretation of Logos Theology, held that deification was prevalent doctrine among the Eastern Churches and made considerable impact through the Patristics into Lutheran, Anglican and Reformed traditions. The Eastern Churches have also maintained the policy of an open canonical status of Scripture supporting the posture that tradition is dynamic and not a closed set of measurements. Roman Catholicism opted for a closed canon because of their doctrine of Tradition interpreting Scripture. The Eastern Orthodox churches to this very day generally hold a Prima Scriptura position in regards to Christian tradition. Due to the influence of Martin Luther, Sola Scriptura has largely been adopted by the Evangelical communities.
ChMost Christians don’t even think about the non-Trinitarian doctrine which is espoused by the National Church of Poland who theological hero was no one less than Michael Servetus whom Calvin may have had murdered due to his stance on the Unitarian theology of the Godhead. See The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought, article on Unitarianism. Therefore, these last two references alone there has been some divergence of opinion in Christian history as to what and who God is. Why don’t we allow for that diversity in today’s discussion? Isn’t there unity and diversity in the Godhead itself? When the New Testament states Christ was embodied with the fullness of deification in Colossians 1:14-26, God in Christ is certainly a creedal statement we can all utilize.
In my theological thinking, Joseph Smith was a mystical, process thinker. As Roger Keller, a former Reformed theologian points out, we need to read and interpret Joseph Smith within his own context and experiences. As a priest in Old Catholic traditions, I’ve grown from this encounter with Joseph. One can always point to the moral failings and the non-spiritual activity of any of us. As Dr. Bushman has asked, is it out of the realm of possibility that Joseph Smith really believed in his experiences and upheld the Risen Lord as part of his testimony? One may ask the question, “Should one’s Christianity depend on one man’s testimony?” The answer is certainly an emphatic “No!” If Christ is not risen, we all have no hope in the resurrection. It is my sincere conviction that the LDS church is a community which is evolving in its relationship to Christ and as my PhD dissertation points out, LDS Scholars can and do inform the rest of the Christian Body about ancient temple endowments and early Christian struggles to understand these concepts. Krister Stendhal, the great Lutheran expositor, stated to Truman Madsen, the LDS Temple rituals are biblical because they portray salvation activity in the ritual. I believe the church’s historical liturgy can be combined with some temple rituals to give a complete worship experience.
All Christian denominations provide special gifts and callings to the Invisible Church whether provide a rich worship tradition or joyful response to the Spirit of God a social justice paradigm for the world to see the righteousness of Christ in her people or even the gift of academic achievements to defend the Christian Gospel. All are needed to join the quest and to be a part of the reforming church.
Up to this juncture, many of our Evangelical brethren still have trouble accepting their LDS brothers and sisters as full participants of God’s grace even though the LDS traditions offer a view of grace which comes from Pelagius and Duns Scotus. The concepts are not identical but do have some close intersections. On an experiential level, when a priest blesses a married couple in Orthodox traditions, the crown is worn by the couple and the hands are tied together and their union is eternally blessed as a sacramental marriage which will be part of the formation of the Kingdom of God when we will share co-ruler ship with Christ. It is a common practice for a priest in the Old Traditions to have special undergarments which pre-figure the new righteousness of his testimony in Christ and were worn in the Syrian tradition right after baptism.
All this information demonstrates that a broader Christian LDS ethos is possible if we will fully recognize each other, as Jennifer C. Lange suggests, as witnesses for Christ. In my professional opinion, the Latter Day Saint faith community would be well served academically by systematizing their theological concepts in a scholarly framework that the general Body of believers would recognize by developing their Law Gospel paradigm. And for the general Body of Christ to recognize the fact, as Dr. Webb has written, we can learn from the growth of LDS Christianity. The aim of Christ’s High Priestly prayer was that we would all be one in Christ’s vineyard. Please give me your heartfelt suggestions on how we may narrow the divide that has been falsely placed there by human interpretations.
May we all love and honor our Master in the service of Grace to all mankind who are seeking to be developed into the completeness of His Divine Image.
Dr. Tom Roberts
Tom Roberts holds a bachelor’s degree in theology from Triune Biblical University, a M.Th. from Covenant Bible College and Seminary, Federal Way, Washington as well as an M. Div. and Ph.D. in Theology from the Hellenic Orthodox University in Athens, Greece. He believes that his mission is to make biblical knowledge more widely known among the general public. Formerly, Tom has been a professional singer, a lay pastor and a D.J. He is currently an ordained Priest for Christ’s Catholic Church and Academic Dean of St Elias Seminary and Graduate School. Tom resides with his wife and son in Weiser, Idaho.
All posts by Dr. Tom Roberts
"In my professional opinion, the Latter Day Saint faith community would be well served academically by systematizing their theological concepts in a scholarly framework."
This is an excellent idea, but please do not hold your breath. Deep, scholarly thinking on theological matters is not part the LDS tradition, with few exceptions. Those exceptions include Elders B.H. Roberts, James Talmadge, and Neal A. Maxwell. (I am omitting Elder Bruce R. McConkie). Your list may vary.
I appreciate the sentiment that our theology should be systematized, but I think that our lack of a formalized confession or creed is actually a feature, not a bug.
Thank you, Dr. Roberts, for your loving and ecumenical words.
Dear Lawrence, Its hard for me not to love the LDS community of faith. No other Christian group ever loved me the way the LDS church has. And, according to the New Testament, that’s the most important aspect of the fulfillment of Christ in us. So whatever differences we have in our perceptions of how wide is the Body of Christ or how much did the apostasy effect true Christianity or who holds the priesthood, we all share a common love for the Savior and His Righteousness in us. Let everything we say be filtered through that paradigm.
Your Brother,
Tom
Systemization does not constitute a formal Creedal statement. It is merely an analysis of generally understood positions that are fleshed to educate the reader about historical and currently held positions. A "Creed" which means "I believe" is a confessional all are required to believe to join a faith community. Your articles of faith might come close to this aspiration. The real nature of the article was could we meet together in a common Gospel paradigm.
I discovered this site in a search on Yah, and I didn’t realize it was a Mormon site until after I commented on it.
I only commented on it because there’s no requirement to do so other than my email address where I can get updates on my comments, and no captcha.
I know how to reconcile the world’s religions with Jesus, but I don’t recognize what the Mormon church has done to the gospel.
I know that Mo and Ma mean darkness, like Maya hides the light of YAH behind darkness, and Yama is the light of YAH before the darkness of death.
And I see Jesus name used as a hook to catch unsuspecting fish for Moloch.
I see Bruce Armaconchie voiding everything Mormon “prophets” said before him.
But worst of all, that “New day and new arrangement” he was talking about voided everything Jesus said, and made him a pope over the Mormon church.
If you required us to sign a creed, I probably wouldn’t be here today; and if it required me to compromise with Mormon doctrine, I would have never wrote a word on this site.
Unfortunately, you left out some of the greatest LDS scholars of our generation. The men you mentioned had a high level of professional caliber but are not on the level of many LDS scholars today. Stephen Ricks, Truman Madsen, Daniel Peterson, Hugh Nibley, John Lundquist, John Welch, are just a few of many. LDS scholarly tradition is still evolving at a rapid rate. Let's give praise to whom it belongs. With the articles that LDS scholars commonly write, one can certainly mine their theological terrain if one nuances their studies properly.
It’s pretty hard to find unity when someone requires you to believe a man found gold tablets that couldn’t be read without an Urim and Thummin.
But he took them to an Egyptologist who could read it without an Urim or a Thummin?
I went to Salt Lake City over 40 years ago to join the Mormon Church, and spent most days in the Mormon Library.
I was as homeless as Jesus, and Mormon’s wouldn’t even talk to me for a minute.
My last boss was Mormon, and he didn’t pay me on time, he invented my pay in his business like interest free loans, and he stole my tools when I quit.
When Mormons come around and I want to study the Bible with them, they can’t find enough in common with The Bible to stick around for very long.
Even when I don’t mention Bruce Armachonkie cancelling everything Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said, to “Make a new day and a new arrangement.”
It’s not like I haven’t tried to have fellowship with Mormons…
I use ancient texts more than anyone I know, but I don’t require anyone believe they’re true to obtain salvation.
Jesus is The LORD, and all of creation was made to glorify the name of Jesus.
Nobody else’s name is important, not mine, not yours, not Joseph Smith or Moroni.
If you want interdenominational fellowship, maybe it would help if you open the temple to Christians who don’t have a numbered ID card.
We’re pretty nervous about those things developing into the Mark of The Beast.
As an LDS theologian, I agree with Dr. Roberts. Not only has our theology changed since Dr. Talmage wrote "Articles of Faith", (Theology & doctrine are not the same things), but the LDS have their own vocabulary and a unique often unspoken paradigm that often leads to misunderstandings with other faith traditions. Both LDS & non-LDS are simply wrong about both the depth and breath of our differences. We will never see our differences clearly until we see our common theology clearly. What we really need is a common Cristian systematic theology that recognizes the vast majority of theology about which we all agree and clearly, accurately and respectfully explains where we are not in unity , yet.
The pre-existence of souls in catholic traditions is Vedic, like Ash Wednesday and rosary beads.
But… The Bible says, It is given unto men once to die, and then the judgment.
Do we go with the Either Or Reasoning Fallacy?
Or do we try to show charity, by trusting, hoping, and believing, that all of creation was made to glorify Jesus?
Vedic literature is full of instances of reincarnations/transmigrations of souls.
But those are punishments, not what the media portrays them as today.
If you used to be Cleopatra but you live as a mortal on earth today, your feet are in hell.
The Upanishads tell us there’s an end of transmigrations.
An end to this life of constant rebirths, and that’s the highest reward you can attain in the Vedas.
Reincarnation was so we could work out our sins, but without Jesus, we couldn’t do it.
The Mahabharata talks about pilgrimages to sacred rivers, lakes, and wells, that covered thousands of miles to wash away their sins.
They’d wash and all of their sins were forgiven. They’d receive heavenly rewards too numerous for me to count them here…
But by the time they got to the next river, they needed to have their sins forgiven again.
The only hope anyone had of not dying in sin was basically, to drown in a sacred well.
Without the blood of the lamb baptisms weren’t good for much, and we were doomed to endless transmigrations on the wheel of karma.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of our sins being forgiven once and for all by baptism, and the prophecy about the end of transmigrations.
He nailed that ordinance to his cross.
Transmigrations aka reincarnations are mentioned in pre-flood scriptures, and they give the locations of cities that have been underwater since the flood as proof.
The Puranas tell us that the era beginning with the Adam in the Torah (same genealogies and dates), as the Kali Yuga.
The time that ends in Revelation in The Bible, with time stopping.
The Bible doesn’t say we’ll all die, in fact, it makes a point of saying we shall not all die and giving references.
The Bible says there will be a time when men shall seek death and desire to die, but death shall flee from them.
We’re commanded not to take thought for the morrow, and reminded with, he limiteth a day calling it today, today is the day of salvation, now is the accepted time, be established in the present truth, there shall be time no longer…
We are our own judges. Whatsoever we measure will be measured unto us.
What will you be doing when time stops?
Will you be like Sisyphus, always pushing a rock uphill?
Time heals all wounds, but when time stops… Will your heart be broken in adultery? Will you be angry and feeling hateful? Will you be blowing your brains out with a shotgun? Will you have a broken bones that never heal?
Or will you be feeding homeless people? praying? meditating? showing love to a stranger? playing with a puppy? talking to your grandma? praising Jesus? taking time to smell the roses?
Will it seem like heaven or hell if you have to do it forever?
When I was in Salt Lake City, as homeless as Jesus, with a Bible in my hand, I slept in the streets, under bridges, and I spent one night in a shelter.
I never could have imagined meeting so many people who have been harmed by Mormons, until I lived with them in Salt Lake City.
Even though I was in their library most days I was there, studying their religion and trying to join their church, Mormons wouldn’t talk to me.
Ex-mormons talked to me everyday, all day; and into the nights.
The Boy Scouts are just the tip of the iceberg. Like the Mountain Meadow Massacre, Mormons have been very brutal to the weak, and meek, and poor in spirit.
If you want to have more people in your congregations, try ministering to the homeless population of Salt Lake City; even though victims of the Mormons also live in houses all around Salt Lake too: they’re more likely to have lawyers who could sue the church; and some of them have.
The Mormon Church owes the homeless population of Salt Lake City some serious love.
I’m afraid Jesus will say he never knew you.
I’d like to thank Tom for allowing me to post here, and I don’t mean any disrespect; but I think I should clarify the homeless population I’m taking about, since they might be invisible to some people.
I’m not talking about the adults traveling on the highways and frieght trains, who pass through on their ways to wherever…
Every day a foster child from Salt Lake City gets too old for qualify for more assistance from the state, their foster parents are ready for a new cash cow and kick the children out with nothing.
The children are afraid to leave a familiar place, so they end up homeless in Utah.
These aren’t the children who’s parents attend PTA meetings and scout gatherings and notice if their son is walking bowlegged after a camping trip.
These are children nobody wanted, and they’ve often been exploited by foster parents. Cps put them in these homes, and it looks bad for them if the child gets raped; so they often cover up for the rapists and silence the children.
You’ll see these youngsters in line at soup kitchens and under bridges, drinking, smoking, and using drugs to hide the pain and shame.
Some are the prostitutes, waiting for Mormons with money on corners all over Salt Lake City.
Boys and girls, they act older because they’re afraid to be seen as the children they are.
Some are theives or drug dealers, trying to keep up in a dog eat dog world.
Sometimes one of them disappears, leaving all their worldly goods stashed where only their closest friends can find them. And they’re never seen again.
Sometimes their bodies are discovered in alleys or lakes.
Sometimes they grow up and become normal members of society, but they’re more likely to end up dead or in prison.
These are the broken stones the pyramid scheme called Mormonism is built on, and Mormons owe them a lot more than they’re getting.
Please help these children when you see them on the streets of whatever city you’re in.
At the risk of being tedious, I’ll explain how I know these children.
I was one of them. I wasn’t in a foster home, because I knew too many children who were, and I ran away from the one they tried to put me in within two minutes of getting there.
I was very good at looking older than I was, and I waited until the day after I was 16 to run away; so I’d have a better chance of avoiding a foster home. I went from playing with GI Joes and toy cars to dealing drugs practically overnight.
And I wasn’t abused by Mormons, but I was a homeless teenager. I knew children who were raped in foster homes, and by men in exchange for space on a couch and a Big Mac. I personally know the people I was talking about. I remember children disappearing, I remember a 15 year old girl killing a man with a knife, who was on top of her. My childhood girlfriend was found in a lake 100 miles away and buried in a close casket; because she was cut up so bad her dad couldn’t look at her.
When I went to Salt Lake City in search of a family based church, I met more people like me. Lots of them, but in Utah most of them were raised by Mormons.