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Interviews with LDS Relationship and Sexuality Counselor Dr. Finlayson-Fife
Here in the 20th installment of the “Ask a Mormon Sex Therapist” series Jennifer responds to three new questions. One question is about garments and intimacy, another asks about the difficulty of communicating sexual needs, and the last question comes from a couple in a dependent relationship.
Also check out some of Jennifer’s upcoming mid-September workshops HERE.
If you have a question for the good doctor you can comment below OR send an email to askdrfife@rationalfaiths.com
Music: Sugar Blues (Pubic Domain), and Flight of the Ginker by Doug Martin.
The first question has been an issue for me over the past year but for different reasons then suggested. I was married for 32 years to a man who successfully hid his use of the many modes of adult entertainment available for most of our marriage. I have remarried to a man who has not been shy about his attraction for other women who often are dressed in clothing that would not accommodate the Temple garments. I regret to say my truth but I feel like a sitting duck. Sure let me wear 3 shirts cause the outfit I like needs an under shirt to cover up the Temple garment while my husband enjoys the women who are not wearing them. I have become resistant to the idea that it is inappropriate to show my shoulders or legs above the knee and I do ponder is this why LDS men seem to struggle with objectification like they do? “Don’t think about the purple elephant” has them hyper sensitive to a woman’s upper leg? I am not a fan of loop holes or justifying my behavior by pretending anything that isn’t just straight up true so I have explained to my Bishop that I am not wearing my garments at this time given my experiences in both my marriages plus I don’t want to contribute any longer to perpetuating the ‘don’t look’ dilemma. I do wear them at night but to suggest that as ‘wearing my garments’ would be false in my circumstances. I am grateful that Jennifer encourages the principle of integrity as we live and grow in the gospel. This lesson has been a surprise to me as I loved and enjoyed wearing Temple garments for over 34 years before having the sense to take them off last year.
“I do ponder is this why LDS men seem to struggle with objectification like they do?”
It is not just LDS men that struggle with this, unfortunately. I think the main cause for this is the increased acceptance and availability of pornography. There have been a number of studies showing this. (Look up “fight the new drug” for some articles and links.)
I disagree about her answer for garments. Intimacy is important, but sleeping without garments for weeks at a time would be too far – I wouldn’t be able to answer the temple recommend question honestly if I did that. I don’t spend 24/7 in garments, but I remove them when an activity requires they be removed. When it’s time for intimacy, I remove them, and then put them back on. I get all the skin contact I need during that time, but I don’t linger out of them. The Lord said ‘If ye love me, keep my commandments.’ We who have been to the temple are commanded to wear the garment day and night, which to me means every day of our lives, and not to look for reasons to take them off. To me, good sex doesn’t justify clear disobedience, or even require it.
Who’s to say sleeping without garments would be too far? My wife and I are regular temple attendee’s and always wear our garments outside of sleeping together, and find it completely respectable to our faith. We love the church and live by its teachings. We also love snuggling and the touch of each other’s skin. Sleeping naked provides such and incredible bond for us. It’s not even sexually related, it’s strictly the energy that only registers from holding each other unclothed in our marriage bed. Here’s a question. Why is it okay to remove our garments for sex, but then be required to put them back on immediately? For us, intimacy is more than just the act of sex.
I completely agree!
Totally agree with you! Very well said!
The end of her comment was stated loosely as the final (might i add the most important question) is do you feel or do you believe you are worth. You may not be able to go days in a row w/o garments, it’s difficult for myself or spouse to even go 1 night without garments but that wasn’t the question. It is not how often do you wear….. put a check on the list type question. It was of how you feel. If you still feel worthy and not worried if, or questioning about worthiness; it is still yours belief that you are worthy. NO ONE can tell you if you feel worthy or not and only you or a bishop can make you repent.
My mother is 1 generation Mormon. She heard as did i you shouldn’t modify garments. She’s short so get the petite garments and when she gets redmgular ones she pulls them up to her waist so she can wear shorts and still be in garments. She feels comfortable doings this, she says she has dang fine legs and God made her so He want her to show them off. me personally if I have a shirt that the garment sleeves are longer then my tee, I toss/donate the tee I’m wearing and get a new one with longer sleeves. It’s just the way I feel comfortable but that’s me.
In Brazil it’s almost impossible to find even modest clothes. The members do their best but it’s hot. Very hot and humid. So they have a habit of rolling up sleeves or pulling up bottoms because they can only get short clothes at a normal price, more modest clothes are usually very pricy and hard to find. Yet, you’ll find they are for the most part a righteous temple going people (this is São Paulo btw)
A helpful bit of additional insight pertaining to the aforementioned recommend “statement” are the words at the conclusion of that statement wherein it says; “members should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment. This sacred covenant is between the member and the Lord and is an outward expression of an inner commitment to follow the Savior Jesus Christ.” This conclusion to me, as an LDS bishop, after sighting a few specific examples in the statement for context, strikes the proper balance between personal revelation AND personal integrity when considering these questions with respect to the blessing of the garment in our lives. It also suggests to me that it is not our place generally to judge how others choose to apply this principle in their own lives.
Well said, sir.
It struck me as I listened to this, that for this couple her it wearing the garment at night or during date night is all part of heir sexual encounter. Is it a long subtle sexual encounter? Yes, but it is all part of sex and intimacy for them, so I think her choice to not wear them at those no times is a fine decision to make. It also sounds like she takes her covenants seriously and has given much thought and prayer in the subject and is looking for reassurance, because outwardly it looks like she is breaking a law but inwardly she has received her answer. She wants to make sure she isn’t rationalizing her behavior to get what she wants. I have had the same thoughts regarding exploring one’s capacity for pleasure alone on one’s own time in order to improve sex in the marriage. Sometimes I ask myself if I’ve really received the ok or if I’ve just rationalized a behavior. I tell myself that I have done that after 25 yrs of marriage so we can improve our situation and that if it blesses the marriage then it’s good. There is the niggling fear that I’m wrong. I think this woman’s question about garments might fall into the same category. Just wanting to make sure we are following God’s way and not trying to rationalize something we want/like.
I really don’t like the comparison between the lower and higher law at the beginning. The lower law didn’t go away when the higher law was introduced. The higher law took the lower law and added to it. The lower law was not to commit adultery. The higher law was that we shouldn’t even commit adultery in our thoughts – above and beyond the lower law. The higher law of love that she describes doesn’t give us any leeway to break the lower law. It requires even stricter obedience. Obeying the Spirit of the law didn’t give us more leeway, it holds us to an even higher standard – keeping the letter of the law and even more.
If it is important enough to be a Temple recommend question, from the First Presidency it is important enough to take seriously. My wife and I have a lot of fun in the bedroom. She wears lingerie and makes it exciting, but in privacy.
I feel reminded of the Sabbath day and the Savior’s invitation.
Excerpt taken from Gospel Principles:
“The seventh day was consecrated by God as a Sabbath in the beginning of the earth (see Genesis 2:2–3). Since earliest times, the tradition of a sacred seventh day has been preserved among various peoples of the earth. God renewed a commandment concerning this day to the Israelites, saying, “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Exodus 20:8). Keeping the Sabbath day was also a sign that the Israelites were His covenant people (see Exodus 31:12–13, 16; Isaiah 56:1–8; Jeremiah 17:19–27).
However, some Jewish leaders made many unnecessary rules about the Sabbath. They decided how far people could walk, what kind of knots they could tie, and so forth. When certain Jewish leaders criticized Jesus Christ for healing sick people on the Sabbath, Jesus reminded them that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of man.”
Beautifully stated, and quoted.
I do have a question. My wife and I are on very different sexual levels and normally neither used of us to mind. Though, several years I had a pretty bad stroke of luck and lost my ability to love very well (in bed or at all). This honestly has been ok, but when it comes to intimacy I must I have to go to her level or I’m just wrong and a sex addict. Some comprises have been made but when we make them she gets to decide if we keep them or not. It always up to her. I mention this and a fight brakes and I’m (and she) are pretty lousy and we both worry about our pre-teen kids thinking mom and dad fight all the time. Though, it’s not all that often maybe once a month or
And what really got me was I was pretty sick and having a bunch of stress caused by health and our day of intimacy came around no usally she isn’t in the mood or is too tired but when I say no not tonight sorry babe I’m sick. She just points and see even you don’t want sex all the time. I mean come if you can figure out the answer before you ask is it really a question.
So I’ve learned to keep my yap shut and try to be content and chalk it up to stress. My issue is she doesn’t EVER reach out to intimamly or hardly ever and it is almost never when it’s just us too in bed.
I feel awkward being married saying this but I like to be needed I’m sure she does too but at times I just feel like she feels she is stuck in our marriage because she’s a good Mormon girl and she said in sickness or health and doesn’t just walk away though, at times I can tell she wants too; but I try to tell her I love her all the time smack her butt, grab her, hug her etc… I know she likes being “chased” what’s wrong that she thinks I don’t?
GI,
Here is a perspective worth watching.
I’ve have an issue with Jennifer’s comments about the family that the guy who has a life changing medical issue being blamed for his wife behavior. I say this as a man who had a life altering medical issue. It took me years too accept that I Washington I was but in the back of my mind I kept thinking my wife said yes to a “normal” guy that can take of her not what I am now. If I asked her now and we were never married I’m afraid she’d say yes but with reluctance not the enthusiasm she had years ago.
She is probably stressed. Life roles have changed and he is probably worried that she is just on autopilot and it really reassurance is given grudgingly once it is given freely and not pried out with a spoon it means so much more.
Again because of his feeling of inadequatness started the whole issue but her reaction to it is causing the wound to fester and get bigger. He can see she is robotically and grudgingly offering love that’s why he keeps asking. If love and acceptance was freely given and not pried out he’d probably stop asking but he still might ask. Take a look from his p.o.v. He’s not who he was show him that’s ok if he needs reminders, remind him show him beyond the surface crap you don’t care you love him.
All that said he might be a selfish manipulation master prick but having seen and experienced human nature I’ve found that while there are issues of low self esteem people are more generally kinda and helpful and it is few that are absolutely just buttheads
The problem isn’t the garment, it’s the way she views the garment. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking time for skin to skin contact, or with wearing lingerie under your clothes every once in awhile, but if you can not feel sexy while wearing garments, or if your taking them off more often than not, you need to revisit why you’re taking them off.
To the third question, you need Byron Katie.
I completely agree with your take, there is more to this than what is being shared.
Heads up I just noticed there are 2 people named “Private” on this comment thread.
My point is I didn’t make this comment just all the others. Silly I think it matters…but it kind of does.
As I’m reading your guys comments I’m a little concerned that you guys are taking her word as a “prophets word or counsel” Her advice and word is just that. Her words alone. I would be very hesitant to take her words and go too far with them. Go back to the prophets and apostles advice and counsel which you can find in the church handbook. Whenever I start reading something that says: what I think is appropriate on wearing the garment. Red flags start going up. It isn’t about what you think is appropriate but what is appropriate before god. And the only person who should have that authority to know gods will on that is the presidency of the church. It’s up to you on how you apply their teachings. I think what is more important is how you think and view the garment. Is what the world thinks or what a guys thinks more important than what god thinks?
Intamacy is a wonderful and glorious thing. And I think her purpose is to talk about how to encourage that. Not about what’s appropriate with the garment. Talk to your leaders if you have issues with that.
You can go too far with anything, including following the words of a prophet, (as Private eloquently quoted). I don’t take her words as prophetic. I take her words as a doctor and licensed psychotherapist who probably has thousands of hours under her belt with helping people heal from issues related to self-confidence, marital intimacy, parenting, sexuality, etc. Topics that are well out of reach from what I’m going to find in an Ensign article.
For instance, in seeking very real help with a marital issue my wife and I were dealing with, our bishop’s primary recommendation seemed to be, “Pray Harder”. You think we weren’t doing that already? With sincerity.
You said it yourself, “It’s up to you on how you apply their teachings.” Which is why it’s so beautiful to have this format available to us. To read how other like-minded Saints feel about and deal with hard topics that some would rather not get into, but instead throw an Article of Faith at it like a comfort blanket.
I wonder if the answer given to the last question on this episode relates to a marriage that has been devastated by pornography use. Has this topic been addressed in previous podcasts? After 26 years of marriage, my sharing physical intimacy feels like a duty to be performed because he’s been away at work for over a month or because he’s still the breadwinner and the intimacy is the way he gets rewarded for staying with someone that no longer truly desires him.
Listen to previous podcasts. Start with episode 1. Better yet check her website for a class that fits your needs. They are worth your time.
http://www.finlayson-fife.com
Question for Dr Fife: Where is the line between accepting my desires as my own/acting on them/asking to have them fulfilled, and not forcing my husband to comply with them? First off, I’d consider my husband a good and loving man, who wants to give to me. We have been going through your enhancing sexuality course together and in the process I have been discovering a heightened level of libido in my own body. I sometimes am brave enough to ask my husband for the new things I want (which are usually in the quantity rather than the quality department) but sometimes he tells me “no” because he’s busy, etc. I don’t want to push the matter because I don’t want to be a “one up” or entitled partner, but it’s also painful to be suddenly feeling new desires and expressing new vulnerabilities without having them validated. In this context, I’m not sure that I’m doing the “owning my desires” thing right. Please help me understand what I am missing!
I’ve listened to every episode and have been given much to think about. I appreciate them. This episode left me feeling very uncomfortable because of the question about garments. I had two issues with her response. One was the same one another questioner had: why isn’t it worth exploring why she can only feel sexy unclothed? That doesn’t seem to align with Jennifer’s previous answers. This question seemed to go far beyond what Jennifer actually addressed, and, from my perspective, there was a very quick jump to “abandon all the rules and do whatever you want as long as you feel good about it.”
That’s a very slippery slope. I’ve heard that attitude before in a previous episode regarding a man who used porn and then prayed about and felt it was fine for him, and Jennifer agreed that with him that that would be fine (or at least that’s what I took away) without really facing the idea that there is way more to it than that. In that episode, Jennifer never addressed the idea that the wife may have a real issue with issue with it for any reason other than “the rules” even though the only perspective we were given was the man’s. It just seems to me, and I am not pretending to be the arbiter of all gospel truth, that if there is a clear commandment and clear guidance, that making a unilateral decision not to follow that should be undertaken with the greatest care and the greatest resistance to rationalizing and self-justification. The height of immaturity is to believe that the rules don’t apply to you, that you’re special in some way that exempts you from the rules.
Secondly, I was extremely uncomfortable with Jennifer’s flippancy about lying to a Bishop in a temple recommend interview. Saying, “I do wear them day and night – some days and some nights” to me flies in the face of the integrity she recommends. This person is definitely not wearing the garment in a way that anyone would agree is day and night, either by the letter or the spirit of the guidance. That’s her choice, but integrity would require you to own that, to be honest. If she is asked “Do you wear the garment day and night,” the answer is no. That’s integrity. Integrity is more than just deciding what is best for you and doing that. It’s taking responsibility for that decision, and it’s honesty. There’s a huge contradition here for me between Jennifer’s emphasis on integrity whilst simultaneously encouraging what amounts to game playing with a temple recommend interview. The lack of respect for the interview itself conveyed in that flippant response troubles me. I recognize that Rational Faiths isn’t really geared to people like me who are very comfortable just being normal faithful members, but I was still surprised to feel like something I think is sacred was essentially mocked.
I recognize that these are my opinions only, and that the hosts and Jennifer and other listeners may disagree.
I am an active Mormon and Have a temple recommend. The church has zero business what I wear in bed or what I do in bed.