Neither the Ordain Women movement or that surrounding the #yesALLwomen hashtag had particularly struck home in my life. Ordainwomen’s request that priesthood leaders ask if women should be included in the priesthood seemed superfluous in a community where the inequality was so much more integral. I didn’t want priesthood, I wanted the right to be a whole person of my own right, to be able to speak up in sunday school or to be passionate about a career and family. On the same note, I didn’t grow up fearing for my physical well-being as many of the #yesALLwomen did – I lived in a safe community, and learned self-defense techniques early on. I was already numbed to the fact that my pretty face is a bargaining chip at job interviews and that to let a guy down with the least conflict meant that you always tell them you have a boyfriend.
These are facts of life, but they don’t have to be. I just always assumed that they would be. But there are women who have been fighting for my rights, without me even knowing. Because Ordainwomen and #yesALLwomen are fighting for the same issues. They want a world where women also feel that all possibility is open to them. Where daughters can grow up knowing that they don’t have to be idolized or placed on a pedestal or silenced. They are fighting against a system that supports gender inequality under the guise of equality. They are willing to say – No. Things still aren’t okay over here. I am no scholarly or doctrinal expert, but I can smell out a “separate but equal” setup when it strikes. It’s time that I stop watching the sidelines. It’s time that we admit that #yesallMORMONwomen is a thing too.
The stories below aren’t all mine, but they are all true.
Yes All Mormon Women Too,
Because my underage sister had to share the details of her sexual indiscretions with her male bishop.
Because I’ve never had a female sunday school teacher who wasn’t part of a couples teaching team.
Because I lost my recommend for a year because of sexual misconduct, and my fiance only lost his for a month.
Because I’ve been taught not to desire so long that I don’t.
Because bikinis are forbidden because they reveal what the garment will someday cover, but shirtless boys are no big deal.
Because I always have to preface comments in sunday school with “on my mission” so they won’t be dismissed.
Because I got dumped, again, because I want to have a career.
Because I was told, ‘Girls don’t ask boys out.’
Because BYU has a ‘rape hill,’ and no one cares to stop it.
Because my bishop counseled me to stay with my abusive husband. Even after he hospitalized me. My bishop said it was my fault.
Because I’ve been given Mother’s Day flowers since I was 12.
Because I was given a rape whistle, and my home teachers thought it was a joke.
Because my brother chose not to pursue his dream because he would need to provide for a family someday.
Because I am ashamed to admit that I am single at ward events.
Because my brothers learned how to budget and make a resume, and I learned how to bake brownies.
Because I have to lie about why we aren’t having children.
Because no one ever asks what my job is.
Because I was terrified on my wedding night, but didn’t know I could say no.
Because all I learned in the temple was that my husband will talk to God for me.
Because everyone asks what catastrophic event led me to becoming a stay-at-home dad.
Kathryn Ricks
Kathryn Ricks lives in Colorado with her dog, Sandy. She has no qualifications whatsoever beyond an exceptionally loud mouth.
All posts by Kathryn Ricks
Because I once heard my fourteen-year-old son bragging that he has more power then any woman in the church.
And, I wish that photograph didn’t cause such a visceral reaction in me–a reaction that only a woman could understand.
thank you–
Because I can’t embroider enough golden thread on the scarlet ‘D’ I wear.
Because as a divorced woman in the church, I am either irrelevant or a potential seductive threat.
EXACTLY! I was treated very differently after I was divorced. Now that I’m re-married, I’m “safe” again and no longer a temptress. No one says it out loud, of course, but there’s a definite vibe. Anyone who says differently simply hasn’t been a divorced woman in the Church™.
And then, there’s also the “permissible” reasons for divorce listed in RS lessons. When I got divorced, I KNEW it was what I was supposed to do, but I can see how anyone who was slightly less sure would feel forever judged every time it’s pointed out when you’re “allowed” to divorce and anything less means you took the easy way out.
Because I was told by the Proclamation to the World my only value was to nurture, and I listened.
Now at 47 years old, deity tells me differently; my talent was to be a counselor.
Thank You Jesus!
While I do find your experiences sad, they are far from typical. My wife, mother, sisters, mother and sisters in law, and numerous female friends do not share your opinions on how women are treated in the church. Neither do I. I’ve never discounted someone’s input in a gospel doctrine class because they were a women and I’ve never seen a teacher who did. I’ve personally had quite a few female only teachers for gospel doctrine and essentials. The “shirtless boys are no big deal” is a complete fabrication. It’s in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet for boys to dress modestly too and I’ve seen boys sent home from summer church activities for wearing tank tops. Several other examples here are simply personal problems. Feeling no sexual desire later in life because both boys and girls are told to keep appetites within the bounds the Lord has set is certainly not the fault of any ecclesiastical leader. It sounds like counseling would be a better option than playing the blame game. And I don’t know what your smoking if you say that not following your dream or lying about why you haven’t had children is anyone’s fault but your own. For a church to have SO much control over you, you certainly didn’t pay any attention to the lessons about personal responsibility. As for suggesting that divorced members of the church being useless or a potential adulterer, I suppose I can’t help how you feel and I’ve never witnessed a ward I’ve been in with members that have those attitudes, but I wouldn’t continue suggesting that your experience is typical either.
It might be unwise for me to respond to something that the writer and commenters don’t want to hear, but most of these arguments are limited experiences at best. Many of them are just false.
You are being part of the problem. Ignorance of things happening is not a defense that they somehow aren’t real concerns, or really happening.
One woman made to feel any of the ways posted is too many. If it is happening even one time, it is too many. These things are not anomalies like you want to believe. (the anomalies here are boys being sent home for wearing a tank top. That is exceedingly rare, since boys and men regularly play church ball and such without shirts on etc.) They are typical enough. They happen far too often throughout every ward. We just have to open our eyes and see it, but we as members often don’t want to see it.
Modesty is also a largely one sided topic within the church, with far more of the burden placed on women. The teachings of modesty have lost value because of this focus on dress, and appearance. I firmly believe that the best way to even out at least that one teaching so it stops causing harm, and promoting rape-culture is to focus on the better aspects of it. Modesty in thought, and modesty in action. This applies equally to both men and women, and takes the burden off of statements such as “when you dress like such and such, you become pornography.” and places the burden on personal accountability for our thoughts, and actions as men. A person is worthy of the same respect whether they are alone, and naked in the darkest alley ever, or fully clothed in a church building. The focus needs to shift.
Dusty summed up quite well most of my responses and quite politely. I would like to briefly add in two points.
1: it isn’t about the church having control over someone. It is about the ideologies that we are raised with shaping us as persons later. A woman who grows up in a community where wearing the Burkha is normal will be appalled by a woman showing her ankles, and a man who grows up being told that all men beat their wives will be more likely to believe that is a normal way to have a relationship. The lds church offers up many healthy ideologies that are wonderful, but as long as we have a culture and rhetoric of harm, there will be women (and men) damaged by it.
2: perhaps your wife, mother, and female loved ones have never told you of any unhappiness because they already know that you will dismiss their experience as ‘limited at best’ or ‘just false.’ Maybe you have a very lucky circle of relations. I will simply say this. If you know 4 women, then chances are very high that at least one of them has been sexually assaulted at some point in their life. You can say that that is from outside influences, but their assaulter (in communities with large Mormon populations) is just as likely to be a member as not.
Two good points. I used to be part of the problem myself. Then somebody once told me something that hit home, especially after I decided to pay attention to it. After I started asking the women I knew, with honest heartfelt intent, and started to just pay attention and see it with my own eyes. What they said was “Every woman you know has been sexually harassed, or shamed.” It is a problem in and out of the church. One I hope we all open our eyes to, and start making the changes needed.
Thank you for not just listening and paying attention, but also being vocal about your findings. Hopefully you can help us create a more welcoming church 🙂
@Dusty – How is stating the truth that these are not the problems of the Church at large and are rather individual and isolated incidences make me part of the problem? What, I don’t agree to your false premises and now I’m part of the problem? Part of the problem that apparently promotes the rape culture? I’ve treated women with respect my whole life and I cherish and protect my wife. Screw you for judging me in such an awful way. Seriously.
@Kathryn – Fine, you give an example of wearing a burkha, which is neither here nor there. In what SPECIFIC way do the Church teachings and ideologies teach a woman that she can’t say no to sex? I’ve attended hundreds of lectures, lessons, talks given by the Church that say just the opposite. You have, too. Yet, you’re suggesting that somewhere, somehow a person felt like she couldn’t say “No” to sex on her wedding night and that it’s the Church’s fault somehow? Never have I heard by a single leader (local or general) that a woman must always say “Yes” to sex to anyone, her husband or otherwise. Likewise, I’ve heard the Church teach for decades that raping or beating a woman is an egregious sin and will be paid for in the next life and Bishops and local leaders should report the matter to local law officials when brought to him. Has their been 100% success rate with this? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean that the Church doesn’t teach that there should be. You, too, seemed to suggest that the average Mormon male is “a-okay” with rape when you know better.
Lastly, I believe this is the Lord’s Church and that it is directed by Him through living Prophets. Shocking, I know. Most of the authors on this site believe the Church isn’t new age/liberal enough and they would do a better job than those called in leading the Church. You may be one of them; I have no clue. But taking that for granted, wouldn’t it make sense that at least one or two of the talks during each Conference would address some of these issues if it was as widespread a problem as you’re suggesting? “Bishops, you need to stop blaming women when their husbands beat them.” “Bretheren, you need to stop dismissing the comments of women in the Church just because they are women.” Those things aren’t addressed because they aren’t widespread. I’m sure it happens here and there and that’s because we’re dealing with human beings and they aren’t perfect. Again, I say these are isolated incidences.
Justin, I’ll address several of your points, as best I can.
1 – the @Dusty bit. I’ll let him answer for himself, but I for one have a problem with anyone in the church claiming that “one person’s experience” is not enough to base concern off of. Often we speak in the church of being “One of the ninety and nine” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjt2w9spiwU
That in no way dismisses the savior’s admonition to care for the lost sheep, or the one. However, I would argue that all of these issues are far more prevalent than you think, and come up more often than you might expect.
2 – As far as a discussion of the way that growing up in the mormon faith affects sexuality (for both men and women) I will refer you to an expert. http://mormonstories.org/214-216-lds-female-sexuality-with-dr-jennifer-finlayson-fife/
Dr. Finlayson has a lot of good points to say, and she discusses the way that small details add up to intense results. I will add a personal note, even though you will dismiss it.
Because I have more than 8 female friends who didn’t orgasm for months after they got married, and all assumed that “sex simply wasn’t something they could ever enjoy.”
Those are most of the friends who have told me anything about their sex lives. Most. Not a negligible outlier group. Most.
3 – Thank you for not assuming that I believe I know better than the Lord’s Chosen prophets how to run this church. However, I do believe that though they often decide to speak in very specific terms (Flip Flops being inappropriate sabbath attire for example), they often do not. They do not say “Guys, try to use your nails less when playing church basketball” – because they, like God, do not micromanage our lives.
https://www.lds.org/liahona/2005/03/elder-david-a-bednar-going-forward-in-the-strength-of-the-lord?lang=eng
This does not mean that they have not spoken about the importance or the complicated nature of respect, unity, and listening. See for example:
https://www.lds.org/manual/building-an-eternal-marriage-teacher-manual/respecting-your-spouse?
So, in a way, I am saying that though the leaders are counseling it, it isn’t happening, largely because “Some have offended unknowingly. Others may not understand the far-reaching consequences of their behavior.” If you do not know that your actions, words, and rhetoric hurt, then how are you to know to change?
And because this article expresses it well: why women have a hard time speaking up in Sunday school (though this addresses more general terms)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/10-words-every-girl-should-learn_b_5544203.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
“Because I’ve been taught not to desire so long that I don’t.”
So, we need to teach our young women to say “Yes” to sex.
“Because I was terrified on my wedding night, but didn’t know I could say no.”
So, we need to teach our young women to say “No” to sex.
————————————————–
Yeah, these all sound like personal problems that people want to blame on the Church. “I lie to my friends about having kids. IT’S THE CHURCH’S FAULT!!!111!!” “No one asks me what my job is! I’M SOOOOO LEAVING THE CHURCH!”
Sound legit.
First of all, I am not arguing yes or no to sex. I am saying that women should feel like they have an option. That they are agents in their own lives.
Secondly, yes, these are personal problems, but when did the church stop being about individual people, their relationship with Christ, and how to bring them closer to him?
Thirdly, I am not suggesting anyone leave the church because of these reasons. Leaving the church is always a difficult and serious issue, and not one that I would argue ever gets taken lightly with the exception of sarcastic commenters. However, I would like to suggest systemic change – not necessarily in the organization of the church, but in the way we speak to boys and girls, in the way we treat women.
Oops. Apologies; my comment above should be down here. I thought Dusty was responding to me, so, sorry man. Though I do still take offense that someone who doesn’t agree with you is promoting the culture of rape. I’m sure the other dude would take offense, too.
@Kathryn – The Church has always taught that women have an option. I just can’t accept that all the lessons and teachings on morality were to me only. You MUST have at least heard once or twice that your morality is your own, that you are in charge of it. I heard it at least once a day in high school seminary. Girls were in the class, too.
Your right. My morality is my own. But the current discourse (PLEASE, understand that I use this word to mean “the way that we colloquially discuss this issue.” I don’t mean necessarily the way the church officials discuss it, but the way that it gets talked about in day to day events) is that women DO NOT HAVE sexual desires the way men do. Women must cover up to prevent Men from having illicit thoughts – though the idea is that it applies both ways, no one talks about men covering up to not tempt women.
Because the general idea is that women are not able to be tempted sexually. They are taught that they don’t have desire. That the hottest thing imaginable is not a desirable parter, but to be desired.
I cannot give you official examples, because outside of Priesthood Session or Youth Pamphlets discussing the need to harness sexual desires, sex is not generally a common topic. I will say even FTSotY is swayed a little. “Young men generally take the initiative in asking for and planning dates.” It’s subtle, but this is the only gender difference marked, and it appears to have nothing to do with anything being discussed other than encouraging women to remain passive (the receiver of affection) and men to become active (the giver of affection). Growing up as girls we were counseled dozens of things on the topic. (boys will want to touch you places, don’t let them; Your job is to keep your boy from crossing the line)
You do not have to believe me. In fact, I would rather not argue this with someone here – I had hoped that this article would be a good place of sharing, but that is obviously not an option anymore. So, you can ignore me, you can ignore the women who posted on here. You can ignore the thousands of women who have spoken about #yesallwomen.
Instead, I would like you to do a favor for me. Try paying attention to the women in your life. See how often you interrupt them, or vice versa. See how often you dismiss their ideas because they might be “unfounded.” See how often you make the first move in the bedroom (assuming you have a partner). See how often you take their advice.
I’m not saying you are a terrible person, I’m just saying that being more aware of the impact of your actions can only help everyone.
Apology accepted, and don’t worry about it. Even if you meant all of it in that way, you are allowed your opinion about me and free to express it. I am not offended at harsh reactions. You are a person, and I respect you as such even if we don’t see eye to eye, and won’t base my entire opinion about you off of a single statement made on a forum/singe topic. I am not asking anybody to agree with me, I am pointing out the reality of the way things are. In and outside of the church. Not agreeing with me doesn’t promote, or demote anything. That all is fine. But the very system we were raised in promotes rape-culture. I am no less a part of the problem either, because it is what we know as society and is the norm for society itself. (Not the act of rape itself, but the environment in which the victim is far too often blamed, or forced to shoulder some of the responsibility when this should never be the case.)
These things happen all the time, even though we personally may not have seen it or heard about it, and many of them are unacceptable. They don’t happen to every woman within the church, but even if that is the case, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a huge problem. My own opinion, and the one I was probably a little too forceful with is that if it is happening even once, that is too many times. I don’t apologize for that, however, and stand by it because I think so many of these traumatic things stated by women that they have gone through them are preventable with some changes, some awareness, and a bit of a perspective shift from all of us. If we can prevent even just one more woman from feeling the way so many of those examples illustrated, is it not worth the effort and change? I would argue that yes, it is worth it.
There is one instance that every young woman does go through in the church specifically that is unacceptable. Being under age and having to confess, or discuss things of a sexual nature with an older man alone in a room. Nowhere else in society would we deem this as acceptable, yet we put our daughters in that situation within the church. Do most bishops mean well, and are the majority of them not deviants in any way? I don’t doubt it, but that doesn’t make it ok, and that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been instances of misconduct. Misconduct that could have been prevented with some change.
After having spoke to many women that suffered such a horrible thing as rape, or harassment(as faithful members), they all had one thing in common. Each one of them was asked by their bishop, the police, or both questions along the lines of “What were you wearing? Why were you out so late? Why didn’t you call for help?” etc. The whole modesty narrative puts these women in a tough position. Not only do they feel horrible because of what was done to them, they often feel unclean and unworthy though they did nothing wrong because they do feel they have lost their sexual purity because they are taught to value it so much within the church. (Not that I am suggesting the church start teaching to go out and have all the sex we want before marriage, just to tone down placing women’s personal value so largely in that one area.) and they are put on the defensive from the start by being asked such questions.
And I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it seems you would believe these are all still isolated instances and not the norm. So my question is, at what point do any of the things mentioned in the article become a problem for you, or if you prefer for the church? Is there a certain number of people, or percentage of female members this has to happen to before it is deemed a worthy enough issue and not dismissed as isolated or rare?
I would like to thank the commenters who shared their stories. Thank you for opening up, and sharing, even if the comments have gotten a bit sarcastic and bitter.
I’ve thought about how I wanted to respond after reading your last couple of responses. First of all, I want to apologize; to both you and Dusty. I found this blog just a couple of weeks ago and most of the authors here act like they want to have a discussion, but it’s always turned out to be a disingenuous way to sling mud at the Church. I assumed you were doing the same thing, but your comments suggest that you want an actual discussion. Thank you for that, and again, I’m sorry. I consider myself a very kind (albeit shy) person, but when someone attacks something I love it brings out the worst in me. I felt so ashamed with my snark and comments here that I actually had a difficult time sleeping last night.
As to this topic in general, I have no doubt that you and I would differ greatly when it comes to many philosophies and politics in general. But believe it or not, we want the same thing on this specific subject. I believe the Church to be the single greatest force for good on the Earth (you may disagree). So, yes, it absolutely disturbs me greatly that there are women who feel dejected, ignored, or unsafe in the Church’s culture. While I still maintain that most female Church members don’t feel that way, you and Dusty have brought up a great point. How many is too many? You stated it beautifully with the “Ninety and nine” principle. If even one person feels that way, yes it is too many. If there was even one woman in my ward/stake/whatever that felt this way, I would want to help. My previous comments were in regards to whether or not this problem is widespread, but please don’t think I would leave a person helpless just because it’s an isolated incident.
As to your example of friends, I’ll add my own. I had a friend from Oklahoma who’s wife got together with about 12 of her friends. The topic of sex came up and only 1 of the women there had experienced an orgasm with her husband. None of these women are LDS. It’s a problem, for sure, but I just don’t see how it’s the Church’s teachings (or the day to day culture) that leads to it. I’m also not a woman (lol), so I don’t think my input is very valuable here. I will say this; I think the culture of the Church could do a better job of explaining how liberating and special sex is when you wait until marriage instead of saying, “NO NO NO NO!” and leaving it at that. I had a morality talk given by my next door neighbor when I was 17 and he explained how sex with his wife had gotten them through very difficult times in their marriage. It was eye-opening to say the least.
I think you’re right about our culture thinking girls don’t have the same desire level as boys. It’s not really spoken, but it’s there to some degree. I had a lot of friends who were girls at even a young age, so I knew better. By 14, all they talked about were guys’ bodies/muscles. It’s probably why I started weight lifting at that age. 🙂 And whoever is telling girls that “Girls don’t ask boys out” needs to STOP. Those were the BEST dates! I’ve seen what you mentioned in the FTSoY pamphlet, but wouldn’t you agree that it’s simply stating the culture of the time about “boys generally asking girls out” instead of a subtle way of telling girls that they can’t ask boys out? That was always my take on it.
I read the Huffington Post article you linked. I can honestly say that I don’t interrupt or second guess what a person is saying because they’re a woman. I never have. I think it’s rude to interrupt a person and I don’t see the difference in interrupting a man or a woman. Likewise, never in my life have I discounted a view of the Gospel by someone because they were female. I’d say most of the talks I remember the most from my childhood were from the women in my ward growing up. Because not only were they teaching the Gospel with power, but they also tended to get emotional, which really grabbed me and made me realize how important what they were discussing was.
Anyway, I’ve probably posted too much. Like I said originally, we want the same things. I think most members of the Church do. I think you talk to any male member of the Church and they would tell you the same. If they don’t want women to feel safe in the Lord’s Church, they’re a d-bag. Plain and simple. I hope some of what I’ve said makes sense.
Also thank you for posting this Ms. Kathryn Ricks. It is a topic that I have thought much about lately, and looked back on my own past and own involvement and place of privilege. I may not understand it all, or understand everything that women go through, but I want to understand. In that regard, do you mind me asking what as a man can I do (or what do you think I could do) to help women have more equality? Or what can I do that would treat them more equal? Respecting women isn’t an issue for me, but I often fall into putting them on an idolized, unreasonably high pillar that is unfair for them to even have to think about living up to… which isn’t necessarily treating them equal.
One area I really evaluated on a personal level was my strong desire to protect the women (well, pretty much everybody in my life. Male friends/brothers too) in my life. A serious question I had to sit down and ask myself was “Do I have this desire out of my love for them, or because I think they are less capable than me?” To answer honestly, it was both even though I didn’t want to believe it was both. I had always thought I was so noble in my desire, not even realizing that there was an unintentional backhanded side to it. I am still a very protective personality, but I try to focus on the love aspect of it, and my desire has shifted to more of trying to promote a societal narrative that encourages, and allows women to protect themselves, or lessens the chance that they will have to.
Also if any women don’t mind me asking. Do you have the same desire to protect the men in your lives, or the men you love? I have asked before, and never doubted that there is the same desire to protect children, but I guess I never really asked if the desire to protect a husband, close male friend, etc. is there like I often feel, and am encouraged to feel as a man toward women.