I yelled in church today. I have never yelled in church before. And I have been going to church for over 35-years. Maybe it was about time. Maybe it was bound to happen. But nobody was more surprised than I when my simple question during Priesthood meeting became heated, and then became boiling, and then became a yell.
Today is Sunday, February 9, 2014. I am sitting in the front row of the chapel during the third hour where we are having the high priest group lesson. The instructor is teaching about the plan of salvation.
There is a man several rows behind me. I do not know who he is. I have never seen him before. We have recently reconfigured ward boundaries and there are many new faces. He is a distinguished looking man; silver hair, nice haircut, sixty-ish, checkered coat, maroon tie, obligatory white shirt. 
He has been making several comments during class. His voice is smooth, pontificating, authoritative. It reminds me of Elder Scott giving a General Conference address.
The instructor begins speaking about the Fall of Adam and Eve. The distinguished looking man raises his hand once more. The instructor calls on him. He begins to speak in General Authority cadence and timbre:
“I would like to share an insight that has made the Fall of Adam and Eve much more understandable to me. Eve was deceived by Satan in the garden. She did not know what the consequence of eating the fruit would be, but Eve gave into temptation and was deceived into doing what Satan wanted her to do. Adam, on the other hand, was not deceived at all.” 
“Adam knew every consequence that would follow from partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Adam knew that this was what was in the Father’s plan for the eternal welfare of his children, and that it was a critical step in unfolding the great plan of salvation. Adam understood and knew all of these things in every particular, but Eve did not know these things. Eve was completely deceived.”
His comments seem to go on and on, and he keeps circling back to his observation that Eve was “deceived,” which he says at least three times, emphasizing the word each time he says it.
Something starts moving in me as he speaks. It is not a happy thing. By the time the distinguished looking man with the General Authority voice finishes his lengthy observation, the thing inside me is in my mouth demanding to come out. It will not be denied. At the instant he puts a period to his statement, the dams burst and the lava flows.
It comes out in the form of a question. 
I do not raise my hand. I direct it to the instructor:
“Why is it that we feel the need to be dissing on Eve and saying she was deceived, when, in Mormon theology, unique among Christianity, we believe the Fall was necessary; that what Eve did was the right thing to do; that Eve was the one who was wise enough and brave enough to take that step; leading the way and setting the example for Adam who was not willing to do it himself? Why are we then dissing on Eve?”
Although the words coming from my mouth begin in a normal tone, somewhere along the way they rise in volume, the blood begins to hammer in my ears, I start shaking with anger, and I am yelling by the time I am through. Judging from the shocked look on the instructor’s face, crimson lasers are shooting from my eyes, as well.
The instructor immediately tries to regain control of the situation, saying to me and the class that nobody is dissing on Eve, that this is a minor part of the plan of salvation, and it “isn’t important in the overall scheme of things.”
“Well, it’s important to me!” rejoins a raging voice. I am surprised to find it still coming from my mouth.
“I understand that, but we’re not going to talk about it anymore,” says the instructor, sounding slightly panicked.
The distinguished looking man tries to interject some more comments about Eve, 
but is told again by the instructor that the discussion is closed on the subject.
The instructor now paddles the lesson as quickly as he can to calmer waters.
As the class moves on to the “more important” aspects of the plan of salvation, I struggle to compose myself. My heart continues to pound and my skin to crackle. I look at the nearby door leading outside and fight the urge to burst through it. I stay put in my pew, magma sluicing through my veins. I wonder where this has come from. I try to understand it; to process it. But it is not ready to be processed. It is still busy being experienced.
I feel that the anger arcing from every nerve-ending is not wholly mine, but belongs to somebody else; that it is not coming from me but running through me; that it is the electric current and I am the wire; as if I have for one moment been touched by the white hot hand of an angry goddess; a goddess who is mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.
It is exhilarating. It is terrifying. It is cathartic. It is cleansing.
But it is the cleansing that comes with fire. 
I feel I will be consumed with the heat. It is hours before I cool down.
And still I am left to wonder at the event. Where did this fury come from? Was it wholly mine? In this as in so many things, it is not always easy for me to tell where the “me” ends and the “not-me” begins.
Was I railing against one comment by one man in one priesthood meeting with no more than twenty others in attendance?
Was my wrath kindled against the voice of a smug and supercilious patriarchy that gives honor to women with the right hand while taking power away with the left?
Was I scorched by the outrage of an offended feminine divinity no longer willing to brook such abuse at the hands of ungrateful sons?
And was this feminine divinity channeling her fury through me, or has she been smoldering inside me for years, waiting for the right wind to fan her embers into a raging holocaust?
I don’t know the answers to any of these questions. All I know is my experience was real. Very real. 
And perhaps that the time is upon us when what was winked at before will no longer be tolerated.
Raise the mighty mother mistress,
Waving high the delicate mistress, over all the starry mistress, (bend your heads all,)
Raise the fang’d and warlike mistress, stern, impassive, weapon’d mistress,
Pioneers! O pioneers!
–Walt Whitman
Corbin Volluz
Corbin Volluz lives in the beautiful foothills of the Cascade Mountains in western Washington state. He has been practicing law for 25-years with a focus on criminal defense and personal injury. Corbin joined the LDS Church in June of 1978, shortly after the lifting of the priesthood ban, and has been studying Mormonism ever since. He has been published in several venues, including the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and BYU-Studies.
All posts by Corbin Volluz
This was amazing. Loved it.
Thanks, Laurel!
Please feel free to spread it around!
I recently taught Gospel Doctrine on the subject of the Fall. The majority of my lesson focused on Eve. From several sources on GospelLink.com (owned by Deseret Book) I came to understand some very powerful things about Eve. First, the word is beguiled, not deceived. Granted, Paul uses the word deceived but there may be translation issues there. However, the Book of Moses uses beguiled in reference to Eve. A friend counseled me to research “beguiled”. This word perplexed me. Does it mean what I think it means? In the book “Eve and the Choice Made in Eden” author Beverly Campbell discussed the word with a Hebrew scholar. The scholar said the word denotes deep spiritual, emotional trauma. I read a quote from John A. Widstoe (“Evidences and Reconciliations”) that stated both Adam and Eve were fully aware of the Plan and the necessity of the Fall. Satan tempts Adam with a very basic, “Eat this.” Adam says, “No way.” Satan tempts Eve with a very persuasive argument, actually stating what she knows, as well as Adam knows, has to happen for the Plan to move forward. The full import of the decision she must make begins to penetrate her soul. She is beguiled, “I must do this but it is going to be so very hard for me, Adam and our children.” The Savior experienced a similar emotion in the Garden. He intellectually understood the Atonement before but as the actual emotional, physical and spiritual experience begins, He asks the Father if there is some way that He doesn’t have to drink the bitter cup and still have the Atonement come to pass. But He accepts the will of the Father and partakes. Eve does the same. Satan tells Eve to go to Adam, thinking that Adam will refuse because of his earlier encounter. Get one to fall and the other stay. Satan thinks he’s won. Adam comes to his moment of understanding and partakes. Both Adam and Eve willingly and knowingly partook of the bitter cup that was the Fall.
When questioned by the Father Adam says (I paraphrase), “I obeyed the greater law and partook to remain with my wife.” Eve says, “The serpent brought me to a point of decision about our responsibility to move the Plan forward through the Fall. It was an emotional struggle (beguilement) but I followed Thy greater commandment.”
Elder Nelson in a conference talk (Oct ’93) praised Eve for her great courage and wisdom. How could that statement be true if she was deceived? She and Adam were among the great and noble ones, just behind the Savior himself. Their mission was just as critical to our eternal progression as the Atonement. Elder McConkie and Elder Nelson state that the Creation, the Fall and the Atonement are the eternal pillars of the Plan of Salvation. The Father chose wisely from among His spirit children. I’m pretty sure I know what my answer would have been, “No weeds, no work…this place just needs a golf course. I think I’ll stay.”
Excellent piece, Corbin. Thank you.
I feel like at church I’m the San Andreas fault sometimes, sitting through hour after hour after hour of insipid comments and “insights” that have no doctrinal basis while everyone around me nods their heads with a glossed look over their face. One day the fault is going to slip and the earth will shake.
I think my earth shook February 9th!
So I guess it wouldn’t be amiss for me to say it was all my fault . . .
Beautifully expressed.
There was a time in pre-Augustine Christianity, when the Fall was considered a good thing, a liberating event in which humanity now had the capacity to realize its potential.
President of the Church John Taylor said, “There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world . . . There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness.”
–6.John Taylor, in Brigham Young et al., Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., reported by G. D. Watt et al. (Liverpool: F. D. and S. W. Richards, et al., 1851–86; repr., Salt Lake City: n.p., 1974), 16:197–98. (I cribbed this from Terryl Givens’ “Letter to a Doubter.”)
Corbin, thanks for sharing our experience. Good for you in standing up for what you believe, even if a bit unconventional! It sounds like it might have been pretty cathartic.
I have a question for you. Because of the surprising nature of your emotions in this situation, I’m wondering if you are right that is came from somewhere deep. I mean REALLY deep. In fact, maybe even as far back as childhood. Could this pontificating, condescending man remind you of someone from your past? Who were you actually yelling at that could possibly also deserve this kind reprimand from you?
You ask an interesting question, Sheila. I thought immediately of my father, but he was a good man; not a man of God, but a man of no-God.
He was a devout atheist. He helped me see that a person does not have to believe in God in order to be moral.
I think it likely a lot has built up inside me over my many years in the LDS Church. A few of my experiences in this regard are mentioned in my profile over at Ordain Women.
Speaking as introspectively as I can, I think it more probable my emotions stem from experiences at church rather than my childhood.
Great question, though!
Loved it. Love your honesty. Love you, Corbin!
Sharing….
Thanks so much, Cate!
Share away!!!
I enjoy your articles, Corbin. Thanks.
You are super welcome, Naomi! Thanks for the kind words!
Thanks Corbin! You have a very refreshing perspective. Hope others can be awakened out of their slumber and feel a little bit of the white hot burn of an angry goddess.
She scalds where she touches.
But she can also nourish and heal.
Thanks for the encouraging words, RT!
He needs to go to the temple again and listen to how Satan talks to Eve. He tells her nothing but the truth, unlike how he talks to Adam where Satan includes the lie that he shall not surely die. While Satan obviously hopes for a different outcome by using this method, he inadvertently allows Eve to make an informed choice.
In Milton’s “Paradise Lost,” the serpent comes to Eve and tells her that she will not die; that he himself has eaten of the tree and he hasn’t died, so why should she?
Satan never tells Eve that she will not die. He tried that lie with Adam, but it was recognized, so his tactics change with Eve.
But Satan does in “Paradise Lost.”
I understand the perceived need we sometimes have to try to harmonize the different accounts of the Garden story we have in scripture as well as in the temple, and to try to make sense out of it.
I have pretty much concluded that such an overly literalistic approach to the story ends up depriving it of much of the meaning it has for me.
Others are free to differ.
This was raw, and it was real. You may well have been the wire, channeling the energy and anger and zeal that many in the church feel.
What in the hell was that “distinguished gentleman’s” point anyway? Why the need to put the deceit on Eve, rather than on Adam, or on both, or neither?
I’m happy you spoke out, and that you let your emotions and the spirit of the moment speak loudly. Good for you! This gives me hope, as I sometimes feel similarly, while listening to the pontificating that often fills the air at church.
I am not sure what his point was, Wade, other than that this was his point of view, he thought it valuable, and wanted to share it with the class.
There are huge gaps in the story of the Fall, of course. We do not know what Adam and Eve knew and when they knew it.
The fact Mormonism turns the story on its head and makes the Fall a positive thing (“a fall upward and forward”) has required revisiting the story and reassessing whether we should blame Adam and Eve or laud them.
And the fact it was Eve who first partook puts her first in line for glory and honor in the Mormon version, unlike the traditional Christian version that puts her first in line for blame.
I do not claim to know what Adam and Eve knew and when they knew it, but I found it objectionable to fill in the gaps so decidedly against Eve, thereby effectively retreating away from the LDS version of the Fall and back into that of traditional Christianity.
Sometimes what we push out the front door comes in through the back window.
Thanks, enjoyed the read.
I think a few members of your group will be careful in their future comments so as not to unleash the monster 🙂
“Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey!”
I’ve read quotes where Brigham Young said much the same thing. And because of that, Eve was deceived- she actually sinned, where Adam merely transgressed.
I hope someone was in Priesthood Quorum that day to yell at Brigham, too. Maybe one of the Orsons?
We sometimes laugh at the scene portrayed in the Garden when God finds out about the shenanigans going on his absence, and how Eve blames Adam, and Adam in turn blames the serpent.
But this whole line of reasoning (starting with Paul, I believe) that Eve sinned, but what Adam did wasn’t so bad, and so it was only a “transgression,” seems to me just one more permutation in this millennia old blame-game.
And on top of those fabulous words, you quote Walt Whitman! I’d kiss you if I could.
My wife got me the book, “O, Pioneers!” by Willa Cather for Christmas and I recently finished reading it.
At the end is printed the complete Walt Whitman poem from which the title of the book is taken.
The one verse I quote at the end of the article leaped out at me from the rest of the poem.
“Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine.”
Maybe our generation will see Heavenly Mother revealed to us. I hope a Mormon does it.
Amen.
I hope so, too, Jonathan.
I have a feeling that, when she is finally revealed in all her majesty, we may find that she has been with us all along; in the mountains and in the deserts; in the trees and in the bushes; in the rivers and in the oceans; that she bequeaths us our bodies when we are born and takes us back into her embrace when we die.
That she is around us and under us and over us and through us.
And perhaps not surprisingly, that she is nowhere more absent than when we are shut away from her in church.
Corbin,
Being that Instuctor you talk about, anytime someone yells in class, I am going to deflect the conversation. If you had not been yelling, we could have discussed it in more detail. I am more prone to agree with the femine side of things than most.
You put things so flowery. Why let facts get in the way of a good story. I don’t know that I was panicing. I’ve been a Drill Sergeant for six years, and can handle almost any situation. I was simply not going to allow yelling in the chapel for any reason.
Dear Roger,
I was not going to mention your name or anybody else who was involved in this matter, but since you have “come out of the woodwork,” so to speak, I want to mention the fact that we talked after class, and you seemed concerned that I might be offended by the way you shut off the conversation.
I appreciated your concern. I told you I was not offended, that I wasn’t out to win an argument, but just wanted my voice to be heard.
You allowed that, and when you shut down the conversation on that subject, you applied it equally.
That was completely fair of you.
I appreciate you and think you are a good teacher.
In respect to Roger. Sounds like you did allow it, no matter what you say here. Because lies, hypocrisy, double-dealings, slander, back-biting, false accusations do occur in your chapel like they occur in any given chapel on any given plot of ground., at any given meeting. ” Not allow it?” Don’t flatter yourself. If more people were courageous to stop evil, to stop slander, to stop falsehoods, your church (yes, your very chapel) would be the holy of holies you’d like to elevate it to. I don’t believe God cares so much about voice….as he cares what we use it for. What we allow others to do to others, say about others. Perhaps you may remember that Jesus yelled and turned over tables when people had gone wrong. Corbin, I am proud of you for using your voice in any way that suited the purpose and at other voices you responded to. Heaven forbid we all act like Pharisee and care more about appearance and showing the correct face with the correct voice at the correct time. Give me a voice that yells (or cries) in the wilderness for the embattled, the down-trodden, the women and children who have been stripped of voice by men; and I will come. And by God, and for our mother God, God will come with me.
There are more angry goddesses than one.
Is it just me or does Mermaidmood’s picture/icon look like a nuclear mushroom cloud?
Corbin, you asserted that “in Mormon theology, unique among Christianity, we believe the Fall was necessary; that what Eve did was the right thing to do; that Eve was the one who was wise enough and brave enough to take that step; leading the way and setting the example for Adam who was not willing to do it himself….”
While some older church members may find your belief about Eve to be foreign, I’m very familiar with this belief and I’m not opposed to this version of Eve. However please provide scriptural (or other textual) support for this version of Eve because I think that will help unify everyone better. (I’ll try to be a little bit of a TBM advocate in order to give you something to reconcile.) Here’s the evidence that is counter to your Eve belief: Eve saying “The serpent beguiled me” in the temple ceremony and in Genesis 3. In Moses 4:12, after the serpent tempts Eve, it says, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.” From this scripture it seems to say that Eve decided to eat the fruit because it looked good for eating, it looked good for looking at, and she wanted to be wise.
Ultimately, my question boils down to, what evidentiary support do you have that Eve ate the fruit with the expectation that it would allow the plan of salvation to develop further?
I think I mentioned this before in another comment, CeeJay, but didn’t want to leave yours unanswered.
There are many ways to approach the Garden story and many things we can learn from it. I try not to be too literal in my approach. I am frankly not necessarily convinced a person named Eve ever existed. Or a person named Adam.
In our LDS version of the story, as in any other version, there are huge gaps of evidence left to the reader to interpolate. I do not claim to know what Adam and Eve knew and when they knew it.
But if we are going to say the Fall was a critical step in the working out of God’s plan of salvation for his children, and that eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge was a necessary and a good thing, then we have to do something with the fact that it was Eve who first partook.
Eve has been blamed by mainline Christianity for centuries for being the first to eat and thereby precipitating what they see as a radical departure from what God had in mind.
Having determined that the Fall was not a radical departure from what God had in mind, but was in fact exactly what God had in mind, should not Mormons accord Eve at least a commensurate amount of honor and respect?
The fact that a person acted predictably, from the perspective of God, is simply not proof of honor and respectability. Even if the predictable action was at a seemingly critical point in human history, it still doesn’t seem convincing. I’m not convinced especially because you could use the same reasoning to say that Lucifer deserves honor and respect.
IT’S ABOUT DAMN TIME SOMEBODY YELLED!
P.S. Fury is Her lullaby.
Eve was deceived, that is a fact of the story. She listened to the father of lies and disobeyed God and in doing so put Adam in a position where he had to choose to disobey one command or the other. Adam made the right choice in that situation, but Eve did not. It was Eve’s choice that made the Fall necessary. Before Eve partook, Adam refused which was the right thing for him to do.
God doesn’t lie, he doesn’t say he doesn’t want you to do something when in reality he wants you to do it. When he told them not to, he meant it. Satan wasn’t behind the veil either, he knew the plan and he had no intention of helping it along, he was doing what he could to mess things up, not help it along.
Now I do think that guy was wrong about Adam knowing what all the consequences would be. I think he only knew that he had to pick one command or the other, obeying both was not possible. He would rather live with Eve and face the consequences of that disobedience than live alone and break the command to have a family. A very touching love story if you ask me.
This is a common LDS understanding of the Fall, P.A.
And I think it important to emphasize here that there is no single LDS understanding of the Fall, as is being made pretty clear in the comments to this thread.
I do not claim to know what “the truth” is of the story, but will have to say I respectfully disagree with your assessment that Eve’s being “deceived” is “a fact of the story.”
From my perspective, there are no facts of the story.
Only possibilities.
I’m very surprised that you do not see the horns of the dilemma upon which the decision turns: (1) do not eat of the tree, and (2) multiply and replenish the Earth. Both commands cannot be followed. Only one. In her innocence, Even cannot be blamed either way. She simply realizes that it is impossible to multiply without accepting the fatal dose of knowledge of good & evil.
The Garden Story is not a history text. It is a dramatic ritual presentation teaching us the consequences of being like gods, for both good and ill. Without Eve’s brave and decisive act, Free Agency would have been dead, and the Plan of Salvation lost. This is a metaphorical and figurative account of childhood’s end and of acceptance of adult responsibility. In the event Adam was a wuss, and Eve saved the day.
Thank you for taking the time to read the article and to weigh in on the comments, Robert.
I have read many of your papers over the years and have always been impressed with your meticulous research and thoughtful analysis.
And I agree with you regarding the nature of the Garden of Eden story as being metaphorical, figurative, as well as a dramatic ritual.
And that Eve saved the day.
I had a Gospel Doctrine teacher several years ago who tried really hard to make the same point, and I keep coming back to these two quotes from Apostles:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.” (Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change”, October 1993 General Conference)
“It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).
“Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall (see Bruce R. McConkie, “Eve and the Fall,” Woman, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, pp. 67–68). Joseph Smith taught that it was not a “sin,” because God had decreed it (see The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980, p. 63). Brigham Young declared, “We should never blame Mother Eve, not the least” (in Journal of Discourses, 13:145). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. … This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin … for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:114–15).” (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Great Plan of Happiness”, October 1993 General Conference)
Thanks for that wonderful reference, Emig.
I am happy to say that, for once, I am in complete agreement with Dallin H. Oaks.
And I continue to remain optimistic that some day the actions will match the rhetoric.
Thank you, EMIG! P.A., not so much.
Eve was a God. Just like Adam. C’mon, people. She and Adam (if you believe they were literal people) were both brilliant, wise and holy. Ignorant, innocent, yes. But brilliant.
She made a choice and by so doing discovered there is more than one source of inspiration. This was the first time Adam and Eve understood that something other than God could influence their decisions. . . I’m sorry, people. Eve knew (with an innocent, perhaps unconscious knowing) she had a job to do and she did it. End (and beginning) of story!
Also, tonight is the night for parenthesis! (If your’e into that sort of thing.)
Just for the record, the distinguished-looking man was simply quoting the Bible. 1 Timothy 2:14 states it quite explicitly: “Adam was not deceived, but the woman [Eve] being deceived was in the transgression.” If you watch the temple videos, you’ll see the same thing:
1) Satan tries to make a case for Adam partaking of the fruit, but Adam doesn’t buy it.
2) Satan comes up with a more convincing argument and succeeds with Eve where he failed with Adam.
3) Eve tells Adam what she did. Adam, understanding the implications, makes a conscious decision to follow suit.
I don’t think it’s “dissing Eve” to point out that she was deceived; it’s just the truth. She was innocent and, in her ignorance, chose to follow Satan instead of God. I do the same thing sometimes, and I’m not innocent at all!
Jeff, I wonder if you think it is within the realm of possibility that scripture is colored by the perspective and bias of men/patriarchy.
Oh, definitely. When I was an undergrad, I chose that very subject for my final report in my Bible-as-Literature class. (Fwiw, I got an A on it.) But I think when we see a concept that appears in ancient scripture, modern scripture, and the teachings of latter-day prophets, it’s probably fairly safe to assume there’s an element of truth to it.
Why would it be the element of truth that you have chosen, sir, and not another? Why is it not the truth with its connotations and paradigms in Hebrew (or Latin, German, French) instead of English?
We have no choice but to use literary analysis on the Bible in order to gain different meanings. However, the ancient prophets weren’t listening to God in English.
Also, please note the quotations of the prophets and apostles listed in this page. The modern prophets quoted don’t seem to share your opinion.
I tend to agree with the majority scholarly consensus that 1 Timothy was not written by Paul, who was actually quite feminine-friendly, but was penned by somebody in church leadership decades after Paul’s death in order to buttress their ever-increasing claims of exclusively patriarchal ecclesiastical authority.
What happened in early Christianity may be seen to have marked affinities with LDS history in this regard.
This is why I have taken a vow of silence for Elders’ Quorum and Gospel Doctrine: I’ve figured that things go best if I keep my mouth shut. But I’m glad that could burst out through you.
Miss Ritter: “Peter, don’t make promises you can’t keep.”
Peter Parker: “But those are the best kind. “
.
I hope everyone is aware of this.
Some things in the Bible are just not true. I wish more people in the Church had the guts to just flat out admit that.
Yes.He.does.
I yelled in church once. It was also in a priesthood meeting. The elders were all joking about the various ways they had rejected or otherwise avoided the group of Jehovah’s Witnesses that had been in the neighborhood the day before. I raised my voice as I expressed my surprise that a group, most of them returned missionaries, thought it appropriate to make a joke of the earnest efforts of the Witnesses. I asked rhetorically if they didn’t remember the pain and humiliation of incessant rejection clearly enough. Perhaps I was particularly sensitive to this as a former missionary to Scandinavia, but I was aghast at the behavior of this group of men. They deserved a good yelling at. Several other quorum members thanked me for my outburst after the meeting.
These things should not be.
You are right.
They deserved a good yelling.
I’m glad someone else gets emotional about the thoughtless comments made in gospel doctrine. So often, I have the same urge to scream. But I don’t. Why? Because when I do speak up, the air in the room turns icy cold and everything becomes strangely quiet. So, instead of flapping my jaw, I bite my tongue. You can always recognize me. I’m the one leaving with a bloody mouth. (grin)
Good thing tongues heal quickly. 🙁
Anthony Larson!
What brings you to this neck of the woods? I read your trilogy (plus one) back in the 1980’s and wrote you a letter in 1990 regarding a published debate I had with a certain Church of Christ minister in Austin, Texas.
You were gracious enough to write me a kind and supportive letter in response.
I also heard you on a podcast a year or so ago.
I hope you are doing well.
And thank you so much for the supportive words!
This is why I find myself attending the Gospel Principles Sunday School instead of attending Gospel Doctrine like a normal 42 year old Returned Missionary. I spent years as a primary teacher and am currently working with the YM so I don’t have have these ‘adult’ conversations. I guess I just need to keep my gospel study simple.
My experience has been there is little if any difference between Gospel Doctrine class and Gospel Principles class.
They are both taught at the same level . . . that level being the same as Primary.
Ditto Young Men’s.
Ditto Young Women’s.
Ditto Relief Society.
Ditto Elder’s Quorum.
Ditto High Priests.
Ditto General Conference.
I came very close to yelling at a bishop once. My voice began to shake, and I refused to cry.
I said, very loudly, “I need to leave, or this is going to get out of control. I will say something I will regret.”
And I walked out of the building and walked around for a long time.
My husband came looking for me. It was in defense of a defenseless (special needs) child, who had done nothing hurtful to anyone but who wasn’t ‘fitting’–
attacks were levelled at my husband and me about how we weren’t providing the proper training for this child (who never showed any out-of-control behavior)–
Yes, parentheses. 🙂
I realized the man was persecuting us, and my anger flared. Nothing I said in a reasonable tone was taken as having any value.
I fled.
I apologized even as I was fleeing, “I’m sorry; I have to leave; if I don’t, we will both be sorry.”
Several years later that bishop became very, very ill, and he came to me and apologized, crying, saying, “I was very unfair to you and your family; I know that now.”
Sometimes a little anger isn’t such a bad thing.
I am sorry you had this awful experience with your bishop, and am glad it bothered him enough to want to make things right in the end.
I was so glad to read this. I have long thought that I was the only one who became upset with people (and leaders) because of their comments during lessons at church.
(I have yelled at leaders because of bad treatment of me and my family from leaders and some ward members.)
I used to call out people during lessons who say some very odd things that I know are not doctrine and know that it was never spoken of over the pulpit at General Conference. I keep quiet now days.
I have also learned that it is important to study the Bible from the Hebrew language aspect. Translation really does matter in understanding Scripture.
There is a problem of culture and folk doctrine/beliefs that are unique to the LDS religion. The majority of members do not study as they should to find out truth and fact for themselves.
At Anonymous For This:
So glad you finally received an apology. My child had something horrible happen to her that never should have happened. Hind sight is 20/20 so the saying goes. I wish every day that I would have involved the law. Involving the law would have hopefully made everyone see how serious this situation really was. We never got an apology. We were made to be in the wrong. Wow. It takes everything we have to attend church every Sunday. And when I see these people in the Temple I leave. I was told by a wise person I have to forgive, but I DO NOT have to like the people I have to forgive. Take care and God continue to Bless you and your family.
I am so sorry for your experience, JG. I am not your bishop or your father confessor or wise or anything, but I believe you do not “have to forgive” anybody.
Forgiveness is not something that can be forced, any more than the Spirit can be.
It either comes or it doesn’t, and you shouldn’t blame yourself if it hasn’t come yet or never comes.
The only time I believe forgiveness even approaches being an obligation is after a full and complete apology is made by the offending party. And even then, it is not your obligation to forgive. Forgiveness comes of grace and not of compulsion. It is the same from us as it is from God.
We have unfortunately set up a paradigm that all too often victimizes the victim.
Oh, thank you! Thank you for not only posting your experience where it can be read but thank you also for giving voice to those of us who are serving in other meetings and cannot speak up in yours. Thank you for your sensitivity to Mother Eve.
You are so very welcome, JHS.
But I am not sure whether I was giving voice to Mother Eve or she was giving voice to me.
Thank you all for the comments. I sometimes feel like I will be the Yucatán asteroid that will wipe away the moronic grin some people in my ward have on their faces when I seek to add meat to our weekly glass of GD milk… As a 34 yo Bishop, reasonably fluent and eloquent in both Portuguese my native tongue) and English (my mission language), I am all too displeased to see that the average lds member enjoys being ignorant as much as ward dinner is enjoyed. I am right now sitting by my father’s sickbed at a hospital in Brazil, wondering why NONE of the many priesthood holders from the 3 wards in my hometown (having my Father served as a Bishop to these people on 3 different occasions in the last 30 years) have come to check on their dying leader. On the other hand, my two sisters and my mom are making it happen for him. I hate to see their poker faces when someone plans out a service project… Let the lava flow, the winds rage, the earth shake and the asteroid hit!!