The views expressed in this document are the author’s and do not reflect the opinions of the Department of the Air Force, the Department of Defense or the Federal Government. I Paul Barker, am posting this essay that was written by a friend of mine (Atticus). Due to his position in the military I will keep his real name anonymous.
“The most sexually restrictive cultures have strong double standards for male and female behavior. Women and men are supposed to act in prescribed ways, with men allowed more leeway and freedom in many cases. For example, a woman is often blamed when she is raped.” (Darrel Ray, ED.D, Sex & God)
As a lawyer, I review and analyze sexual assault cases on a daily basis. I have interviewed and talked with victims; heard their stories first hand. I have briefed people in leadership positions on the problem, developed trial strategy, and helped people see how their cultural biases are affecting their objectivity when analyzing a case. Currently, most of my work-day is spent overseeing and coordinating the prevention, investigation and prosecution of sexual assaults within my organization. I’ve learned it’s very hard for people to analyze sexual assaults because of our cultural biases. We live in a patriarchy with a Judeo-Christian background. Those biases exist in greater quantity in conservative cultures like Mormonism. This conservative and patriarchal culture creates both the incentive to sexually assault women and the landscape where perpetrators can more freely operate without fear of punishment. Consider the following fictional fact pattern. It’s created as a composite from what I’ve seen in my professional work but adapted to Mormonism. I choose Mormonism because I am a Mormon and want to help improve my own culture, the culture my children, especially my daughter, will inherit.
Imagine a BYUI coed. I’ll call her Jane. She is cute, very cute; dresses sexy; is in great shape; and is known as a flirt. In the past, she’s had to refrain from taking the sacrament because of minor “sexual sins.” Lately, she’s been seeing a new guy. He has a reputation of being a player, a “ladies’ man”; I’ll call him Joe. On a recent Friday night, Joe texted Jane at 12:30 am and asked her to come over to his place.
Jane went to Joe’s apartment wearing a skirt that ended between her thighs and knees. They started making out; Joe’s roommates saw them going at it pretty hard on the couch. Jane stayed until 2:00 am. Once Joe’s roommates went to bed, Joe started undressing Jane. At first she said “no.” But after a few moments, she froze, didn’t say a word, and laid there motionless while Joe had sex with her. The next morning, Jane texted Joe about what happened. They met for breakfast. Joe told Jane he was sorry she felt guilty about what happened. Joe bragged to his roommates about making out with Jane. One month later, Jane reported to the campus police she was raped.
The police asked Jane if she said “no” the entire time. They asked her if she fought back. They asked her if she was in a relationship with him when it happened. They asked her about previous sexual experiences. They asked her if she contacted him soon afterwards. They asked her why she waited so long to report the “alleged” rape. The case was never prosecuted.
Jane’s bishop asked her if she’d made out with him before. He asked her why she didn’t scream for the roommates to come out. He asked her why she didn’t fight with all she had to protect her virtue. He asked her why she went to his house at 12:30 am in a miniskirt if she didn’t plan on fooling around with him. He asked her if she understood that she led Joe on and aroused his passions. He asked her if she orgasmed or lubricated. Then he disfellowshipped her.
Later, Jane’s roommates started telling people she wasn’t raped, but had sex with Joe and felt so guilty she made up the rape. This narrative moved across campus like wildfire — it made everyone feel better. Jane was publicly shamed and she blamed herself for what happened; Joe was a victim.
In the United States, and especially Mormonism, there is a patriarchy. In our patriarchy, the men are in charge. Men are bishops, stake presidents, and general authorities. Even the “head” of the Church, Jesus, is a man. With that authority comes privilege. This privilege affects how the police investigate, how the bishop or other religious leaders counsel, and the narrative regarding sexual assaults that’s carried in the culture.
Mormonism, and other patriarchies, give men greater freedom of movement. In Mormonism, men have sexual desire and women are desirable. It is the woman’s responsibility to be a guardian of both men and women’s virtue (See Guardians of Virtue, Elaine S. Dalton, April 2011 General Conference; and Be Not Moved, Elaine S. Dalton, April 2013 Young Women’s Conference, “your influence on the young men will help them remain worthy of their priesthood power, of temple covenants, and of serving a mission.”). In our greater American culture, men get to brag about sexual exploits, while women risk becoming sluts. (In the specific context of Mormonism, men brag about kissing lots of girls but not intercourse.) Men gain by having sex with women, but women lose by having sex. Men feel a sense of ownership over the women they sleep with. That’s where phrases like “sloppy seconds” and “left-overs” come from. It is in this environment, this landscape that the perpetrator can operate with impunity.
The privilege means people ask, “Why did she go over that late?” and not “Why did he invite her over that late?” It asks “why didn’t she fight back?” and not “Why didn’t he stop?” It asks “Why did she drink so much?”, and not “Why did he give her doubles all night?”. It asks “What has she done with boys in the past?”, and not “Why did he pick her?”. It asks “Why didn’t she call the roommates for help?”, and not “Why would she want them to walk in to see her naked and being raped?”. It asks “Why did she do nothing?” and not “How scary that must have been, being raped by a friend?”.
Perpetrators instinctively know this. They don’t jump out of the bushes and club women. They get them drunk. They put them in compromising situations where the biases and stereotypes of the dominant culture will question what the victim did more than what the perpetrator did. Within this environment, the perpetrator can operate in a grey area where saying “it was a misunderstanding, a mistake,” sounds reasonable, at least more reasonable than the non-virtuous woman saying she was raped. Where saying “she just regrets it” makes people feel better, at least better than admitting anyone can be raped.
This unequal patriarchal culture also creates the incentive to rape. As I mentioned above, men brag about having sex with women; it increases their stature with other men. Women may also brag about sex with friends, but it’s different. They don’t gain standing and stature by bragging. Men, especially in a patriarchy, crave stature. Remove the increased stature and the bragging stops. Men don’t brag about getting laid when they have sex with their wife because it creates no increased stature, and because the relationship is more even.
When men see women as equals, they lose the incentive to have sex to increase stature. This is why most men who are not rapists won’t sleep with a woman who passes out. Where is the fun in having sex with a sleeping person? Fun is listening to someone willing and engaging in sex with you reach orgasm. Sex with a sleeping person is like playing basketball with a team you’ve drugged; it’s boring. But the rapist doesn’t care. He wants his bragging rights, his conquest.
Ending our patriarchy by treating women as equals would go a long way to solving this problem. It won’t stop all rapes, but it would greatly lessen them and make them easier to prosecute; we wouldn’t be fighting biases from the investigation through the jury trial.
I don’t care why two people have sex. I don’t care if they’re just bored. But I do care that both sides freely consent and give themselves to the other person. No man should feel superior to a woman because she slept with him. No woman should think a man will respect her less because she slept with him.
Treating women as equals means changing how we fundamentally operate as a culture. It means asking women what they want changed, because as men, we don’t get it. It means no longer laying the responsibility of “guarding virtue” on women. It means changing the modesty doctrine because we men are responsible for our own thoughts and actions. It means no more “chewed gum” metaphors. It means adding women to leadership positions. It means not projecting how we think rape victims should respond. It means returning Heavenly Mother to her rightful place next to Heavenly Father because you cannot remove the divine feminine from our culture without changing how we think about sex and gender roles; a solitary deity is an asexual deity. It’s also a deity that doesn’t remind us of the divine nature of our women while reminding our men of their divine nature. (For a more detailed analysis of how a culture’s sexual practices relate to their deities, see Darrel Ray’s book Sex & God).
While there is no cure-all for rape, we can make it harder for rapists to get away with it and remove one of the incentives. We can also make it harder for the victim to be shamed, and easier for her to be loved and treated as an equal.
Pablo
Born and raised in Northern California, Pablo received his education at Ricks College and BYU with a BA in Spanish, minor in PE Coaching. Pablo served his LDS mission during the years 94-96 in Rosario, Argentina. He now runs a skate shop and batting cages in Orem, UT. He's married and has 4 boys.
All posts by Pablo
Just FYI…I think using the word “coed” to describe a female student reflects and perpetuates a sexist bias.
Otherwise, I liked the article.
Definitely! The word coed was created to refer to women who were given the “privilege” of going to school with men. It is so ingrained in our culture, that women are second class citizens, that well seeming people make this mistake all the time! But notice how you NEVER call a male student a coed.
can you be in my ward 🙂
Just when I think I’ve read the best post ever at Rational Faiths, you come up with this.
BEST. POST. EVER.
“Perpetrators . . . don’t jump out of the bushes and club women. They get them drunk. They put them in compromising situations where the biases and stereotypes of the dominant culture will question what the victim did more than what the perpetrator did. Within this environment, the perpetrator can operate in a grey area where saying “it was a misunderstanding, a mistake,” sounds reasonable, at least more reasonable than the non-virtuous woman saying she was raped. . . saying “she just regrets it” makes people feel better . . . than admitting anyone can be raped.”
Blurred Lines? Perhaps?
“. . . you cannot remove the divine feminine from our culture without changing how we think about sex and gender roles . . . a deity that doesn’t remind us of the divine nature of our women while reminding our men of their divine nature. . .”
Thank you, Atticus. Bravo, Barker Brothers.
Now I finally grasp what the term blurred lines means.
Now that’s a law of chastity lesson worth having…
No doubt!
The BYU example is even more troubling when you realize that if the bishop thinks she’s “somewhat” responsible, he can choose not to sign her ecclesiastical endorsement and prevent her from continuing her education. I wonder how many women feel like they can’t come forward at church schools because there is so much at stake.
Excellent question!!!
Wow. Tophat, that is a very interesting question. I hadn’t thought about that before. How many women live in fear that they’ll have their education/temple recommends/church membership revoked because something like this has happened?? 🙁 Sad!
Thats happened to me. I came forward and got bashed over the head (metaphorically) for “letting” this happen, and the guy, nothing. It felt awful for both reasons. But I think what I hated more was how bad the bishop made me feel. So not his job to call me to repentance when I’m already in his office!!
How about your eternity? Church leaders have control of that, too.
And the man, will his education be put to an end.
I find this totally outrageous.
I am glad i am out of that religion even though i agree plenty of things need to be changed in this world.
This article makes some good points, but leaves some very important points out. Those points are so obvious that I feel they were deliberately left out in order to distort and sensationalize. So first of all, does sexual assault like this hypothetical situation happen in the LDS community? Absolutely. Can the line of questioning by leaders and peers sometimes happen just as described? Unfortunately. But here are the obvious points and questions that the author left out, deliberately or otherwise:
1. The article quotes talks from the Young Women General presidency, telling young women they are the guardians of virtue, implying that young men are not told this. He does not quote any of the abundant and readily available similar quotes Presidents of the Church and others General Authorities have given young men. By not doing so, he implies (and in fact comes out and states) that young men are not taught to be guardians of virtue and are not taught to be responsible. Nothing could be further from the truth. I sit in the classes with the young men between the ages of 12 and 18 every week, and these principles are repeated over and over to the young men in classes and in interviews from the bishop. I believe it is taught to the young men more than it is to the young women.
2. The article never states what happened to the man involved, and therefore implies that he got off without judgment. Anyone familiar with the workings of the LDS Church knows this to not be the case.
3. The article clearly implies that sexual assault must be more common amongst the LDS community than elsewhere, such as non-religious college campuses. Really? That’s a whopper that I’m not willing to buy. Similar types of rape at public colleges are far too frequently in the news. As the photo shows, drugs and alcohol are almost always involved. Therefore, common sense says that it happens far more frequently at non-LDS campuses. As mentioned before, does this happen on LDS campuses, even without drugs and alcohol? No doubt. It is a tragedy whenever and wherever it happens.
4. The article never mentions the curfews that are in place at all LDS colleges. BYU’s curfew is midnight every night except for Friday nights, when it’s 1:30. Curfew doesn’t mean when students have to be in for the night; rather, it means when students have to be out of the apartments of students of the opposite sex. The first question one asks when told there is a curfew is ‘why would the patriarchy impose a curfew?’ I think everyone at LDS colleges knows why. Why didn’t the article mention that they both violated the curfew?
5. A bishop is more concerned with the spiritual wellness of his flock than whether the brother should be prosecuted. The Savior’s example of the woman taken in sin weighs heavily. They simply would not ask the types of questions this hypothetical situation describes.
The Lord warns the patriarchy specifically about “unrighteous dominion”. There are far to many men who don’t get this. But it is something brought up regularly in priesthood meetings because it is one of the great revelations of the Church. That section proves that those revelations came from God, not from a man.
We do need to step back and think about fairness. I’m thankful for the public discussion we can have about such things. My point is that sexual assault happens because of human nature, not because of religious patriarchy. I feel that part of the article is just nonsense. Do we need to be sensitive to what happens after the incident? absolutely.
While it would be ideal that a Bishop simply wouldn’t ask the type of questions described in this hypothetical scenario, Bishops are still human and reflective of their culture. I personally know people who have experienced similar lines of questioning from their Bishop. The author specifically states that the hypothetical scenario described is “a composite from what I’ve seen in my professional work”, which implies that he also knows of real situations where this has occurred and wasn’t making those questions up out of nowhere.
Brian I am posting Atticus’ reply to you here:
1. Young men are taught to be chaste, however, from my own experience
in Young Men’s growing up, I was never taught that I would lose
self-worth if I committed “sexual sin.” I would have to repent, but
never lose self-worth. I was also never taught to dress modestly to
keep young ladies’ minds pure. I’ve never heard young men be told
they dress like walking pornography. I never got chewed gum
metaphors. It’s a similar message, but it’s not the same.
2. It doesn’t matter if the rapist receives church discipline because
he deserves much more than that. The tragedy is the victim often does
too.
3. The article never says it’s more common on LDS church campuses.
In fact, I mention conservative American culture generally. The
article merely shows how it can raise its ugly head within LDS
culture. It looks slightly different in the non-LDS context, but the
fact is sexual behavior is roughly the same across the United States.
It doesn’t really matter if someone is highly religious or
non-religious, the sex-drive wins. However, in more equal sexual
cultures there does not exist a bias against the woman when she
reports sexual assault.
4. While at BYUI (then Ricks) the curfew regularly ignored. However,
a patriarchy would impose a curfew for the same reasons it places
emphasis on virginity – to control the sexual behavior of its members,
especially its women. The control could be seen as both good or bad
depending on one’s view and beliefs, but that doesn’t mean the focus
is equal on men and women. But if you want, I’ll remedy it: “The
bishop chastised Jane for leaving her apartment to visit a boy after
curfew, and told her it never would have happened if she was
obedient.”
5. Spiritual wellness of the flock would have looked like this:
“Jane, I’m so sorry this happened to you. Are you okay? Would you
feel more comfortable talking to a woman or having a woman present
right now. Would you like to talk to a counselor or a victim’s rights
advocate? I know you already reported this to the police, and they
are investigating, but if there is anything I or the ward family can
do, let me know.” Sadly, this NEVER happens!
Last, sexual assault is more common in patriarchies than other
cultures – it’s more than human nature. In a non-patriarchy, or a
culture that values female sexuality for what it is, the cultural bias
would look at the man and say “what did you do to make her feel she
needed to call the police?” You have no idea how many times I’ve
heard someone impugn a woman’s chastity when analyzing a sexual
assault, and I have had to respond with “if she is so promiscuous and
likes sex so much, then what is so different about this sex act that
she reported it as rape?” That’s patriarchy. It can make people
oblivious to the obvious.
I was under the very same opinion as Brian though you stated, “3. The article never says it’s more common on LDS church campuses.”
The article alluded that it is…
“As a lawyer, I review and analyze sexual assault cases on a daily basis. I have interviewed and talked with victims; heard their stories first hand. I have briefed people in leadership positions on the problem, developed trial strategy, and helped people see how their cultural biases are affecting their objectivity when analyzing a case. Currently, most of my work-day is spent overseeing and coordinating the prevention, investigation and prosecution of sexual assaults within my organization.”
“…most of my work-day is spent overseeing and coordinating the prevention, investigation and prosecution of sexual assaults within my organization.”
The above left me thinking this lawyer handles more rape cases for Mormons in a month than a DA would handle in 6 months or more. So yes, though well written and informative, the article leaves one thinking Mormon guys are out raping Mormon girls and never being criminally prosecuted because of the intervention of hundreds of dishonest bishops sweeping rape cases under their desks right in Utah.
So contrary to what you said, the article ‘implies’ rape cases are more numerous on Mormon campuses than non-Mormon campuses and it was wrote to have that insinuation. Otherwise the author wanting to be clear/fair of what he was stating would have listed rape statistics for Mormon and non-Mormon Utah campuses. But they didn’t.
I still think it’s a good article :
Glad you like the article – Atticus tried to make it clear in the beginning by saying: “This conservative and patriarchal culture creates both the incentive to sexually assault women and the landscape where perpetrators can more freely operate without fear of punishment. Consider the following fictional fact pattern. It’s created as a composite from what I’ve seen in my professional work but adapted to Mormonism. I choose Mormonism because I am a Mormon and want to help improve my own culture, the culture my children, especially my daughter, will inherit.”
Thanks, Paul,
I appreciate your clarifications. I understand a little better now.
If you think that bishops don’t engage in “that line” of questioning, you are sorely, sorely mistaken! When I was 16 (two weeks before my 17th birthday in fact), I was raped by my neighbor. I didn’t say anything, I completely froze like a deer in the headlights. My brain was screaming for it to stop, I didn’t want to do it, I wanted it all to go away. It was horrifying, a true nightmare.
When I went into the bishop’s office, he started in on that EXACT line of questioning and it was like I was living the nightmare over again.
Then it was like I had gone out and CHOSE to have sex. I felt like I was being punished, repeatedly. Every Sunday, every bishops meeting. And a year later, he said, “I think that you were probably raped, but I wanted you to go through the process JUST IN CASE.”
Isn’t the bishop supposed to receive revelation regarding his flock? Maybe God is telling you something here. And after that, I fell away from the church.
I’m not alone, either. Many young women have been treated the same way as I was. I’ve talked to them, I’ve heard their stories. And then comes the excuse “Well, the bishop is just a man after all.” If that is the case, and he really has no special communication with God like they’ve always told me, then let’s revamp the entire system. It’s not worth the horrifying treatment of rape victims at the hands of “holy men”. It’s bad enough I had to live through the rape (and he did get away with it, like most rapists do).
I’m sharing this extremely personal story that I rarely share because people need to understand that this DOES happen and it NEEDS TO STOP!
Thank you Jane Doe for your personal comment. Your story is a perfect example of why this needs to stop!
I commend you for your bravery and I am behind you 100%!! I have learned a lot over the years about what is and is NOT acceptable within the realm of the church. I am also LDS and have been through a couple of similar situations with the “line of questioning” with certain bishops. Yes, they are human. Yes, they are supposed to have the ‘keys’ or ‘mantle’ of bishop. This is not always the case, though. In fact, let me shortly share my own experience with one particular bishop.
We were going to our local young/married ward when we got a call from our home ward stating that we needed to have a mtg. with the bishop there. We were very active in our current ward and loving being there and having the rare opportunity to interact with couples and families our own age. This “home” ward was struggling and the bishop there….well, let’s just say he was not ‘called of God’. Not sure exactly what happened there or why this man was allowed to serve as the ward’s Bishop, but getting back to the point…
We sat down with him. He looked at us both and said, “I understand you’re very active in the church….just not in OUR ward.” …What?? Why should it matter what ward or branch we attend? We’re happy where we are. I don’t understand the issue here. Why are we in your office? “You know…if you’re not attending Weber State University, than you ought not be in the University Ward.” I’m sorry??? Come again? My husband was planning to attend WSU in the Fall, but hadn’t started his classes yet. Our records were then transferred to our “home” ward, where we attended for about 3 months, served in callings including Young Men’s President and Sunbeams Teacher (They asked me to be in the YW Pres., but I declined. I’ve never done that before…) We dreaded going to church after that and I was nearly denied my recommend and would have had to miss out on my best friend’s wedding, had I not been able to speak to the Stake President about it. Now, I know this doesn’t compare to actual rape, but I felt spiritually raped! It should be MY choice Where I attend church, whether or not I pay a full tithing (if I’m doing the best I can do…) and…. where I choose to have my records placed.
One day during Sunday school, this ‘bishop’ began to speak to the congregation. An older woman shyly raised her hand and asked if he could move to the pulpit so she could hear him. Out of NOWHERE, he stomps to the back of the chapel and yells, “Well, I have some setting-aparts to do cuz I’m the bishop and that’s my job! You people can do whatever you want!” and turned on his heel and stormed off…needless to say, we left that ward after that and became somewhat inactive for a time. I’ve never dealt with something like that before or since, but in any case…if the church says that someone should be in a certain position…why not stand alone and protest if you do NOT agree, instead of raising your hand to the square just to follow everybody else? That, imo, is not right. If you don’t feel that someone should be in a certain position in the church, you have the right to raise your hand in opposition. It’s not a judgement. It’s not ‘wrong’. It’s your CHOICE!
Now. To relate that to this particular article. In ANY situation, religious or not, if you feel violated, you have the RIGHT to stand up and speak out! Never let society, the church, any other religion or any PERSON stop you. Period.
As a fellow rape survivor, thank you for sharing and speaking out.
There are three instinctual reactions to dangerous situations. Everyone knows the first two Fight and Flight, however the third reaction is Freeze. Women are constantly having their natural instinct to Freeze used against them as justification for the violations perpetrated by others.
Ditto to what Jane said. And if the men think that this line of questioning doesn’t come up, than they are sitting through very different interviews then the women are. This line of questioning, as well as asking for explicit details, comes up with all of us. Whether it was a rape or not. I don’t know a single woman who has talked to her bishop about sexual assault or sexual “sins” that has not been told that they must relate to their bishop every detail of the sexual encounter.
I have fooled around, and I have been assaulted, the interviews were identical in every way.
(different bishops too, as I never seem to stay in one place very long)
By the way, why are not women represented in these interviews why should men be the only judges.. it is unfaire and unhealthy
Our ward went through several different Bishops while I attended University. In my experience, the Bishop was eager to let the young man get back to blessing the sacrament and while the young woman was not the only sinner she was considered the greater sinner of the two sexes.
I was once pinned to a floor while yelling “No, Get Off Me!” as this member tried to rape me. I beat at him with my fists. He was unsuccessful but was so worried afterward that to this day (over twenty years ago) he offers his story and tells people that I “seduced him” and he did nothing wrong. I told my parents later and my Stepdad, a former Bishop went right into the line of questioning about “What did I do to him?” “What was I wearing?” “It’s the woman’s job to control the pace of physical affection and keep it Moral,” etc. I couldn’t believe it. I asked him “Why then doesn’t the Bible and Book of Mormon have two sets of rules, one for women and one for men?” It doesn’t say, “Women, thou shalt not commit Adultery or anything like unto it” and then “Men, just do your best not to commit Fornication though we know ‘it’s harder for you'” (according to my Mother’s Husband).
In my opinion, their is something in the Mormon Church akin to the “Blue Wall” in Law Enforcement. The Priesthood Brethren protect their own. It’s the Condemnation of Eve and her Daughters…She was the Temptress, supposedly…and Adam said, “the woman thou gavest me, SHE TEMPTED ME and I did eat.”
Don t they have kindness and human understanding these guys ?
i suffered sexual assault in my life and it left me scarred for a long time so to imply that it is my fault and that i was sort of looking for it is really overboard.
Finally, if a consensual relationship takes place it is not necessarily a dirty event or merely sexual, unless men view it that way… which many do. and there should be a more human approach to the subject.
Finally, marriage is no guarantee that a man will treat a woman well and be faithful to her till the end so maybe the problem lies there on how men view women and treat them in general.
I personally have ceased to believe that men could treat women well and love them properly and i am glad i have no illusion. I am safe that way and will never get hurt any longer..
And i am sure that God is far more insightful of life than the black and white approach of the mormon church and the blaming of women in particular and putting whole the responsibility on them..
Frankly, i speak to men sometimes, some i find attractive some not, but even for the attractive one, i would not want to jump on them just because of physical attraction. Because true love has greater value than just the physical part.
Jane doe I agree with you. The whole “well the bishop is just a man” is yet again another excuse for bad male behavior. Notice how no one ever use’s that excuse for the women, when they make mistakes. Plus, he is clergy. He has a moral responsibility to be properly trained in these matters.
Thank you Brian Palmer. After reading this article, my girl friends and I had the exact same objections that you so eloquently stated and elaborated upon. We belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day saints and were most appalled at what was left out of this article. We could not be more glad to see that others agree that this is not something only related to LDS colleges or the LDS religion. Its a global issue.
Aubree – please see reply to Brian’s comment.
Amen
I agree with everything you just said. It is important to talk about the difficulties associated with the way people perceive sexual assault.
This article looses credibility because it is hypothetical and the points that were missing create doubts in the author’s understanding of the mormon culture. It seems that the intent was to be sensational.
Mormon leaders teach the same standard across the board. Though the author chose not to mention what happened to the male it is because he would not have been disfellowshiped, he would more likely have been excommunicated. This would have got him kicked out of school likely as well.
I would guess that the author is trying more to attack the structure of the church, and can only do it by leaving out information. This is poor journalism.Unless you want to work for CNN.
If you read some of the comments from real victims that were posted you can see that there is nothing sensationalized. Their pain is real and what they had to deal with afterwards IN the church is very real.
From a friend that read this article: “The author is making the point that if we change our rhetoric, that if we add a recognized or cultural way for women to combat a situation like this it will deter rapists and pedophiles in our communities. He is not saying that bishops or anyone in the church is trying to allow men to rape women. He is in not saying that a bishop when questioning a young woman is trying to make her feel bad. He is just making the point that when we empower our women we help to reduce these situations. He acknowledges that this is a problem in our larger culture like the military also. This is his last paragraph which was the point of the article. “Treating women as equals means changing how we fundamentally operate as a culture. It means asking women what they want changed, because as men, we don’t get it. It means no longer laying the responsibility of “guarding virtue” on women. It means changing the modesty doctrine because we men are responsible for our own thoughts and actions. It means no more “chewed gum” metaphors. It means adding women to leadership positions. It means not projecting how we think rape victims should respond. It means returning Heavenly Mother to her rightful place next to Heavenly Father because you cannot remove the divine feminine from our culture without changing how we think about sex and gender roles; a solitary deity is an asexual deity. It’s also a deity that doesn’t remind us of the divine nature of our women while reminding our men of their divine nature.”
He isn’t trying to condemn our men, he is just asking for a cultural shift that needs to happen everywhere, not just in our church.”
Wow Scott! You have had your head stuck in the sand for awhile. I grew up Mormon even went to Rick’s myself and comments like yours justify why I stay out of the church. While in college, I was seeing someone in the area, I became pregnant and when I confronted the man about it, he denied everything and then to make matters worse, his bishop called me to really ask if I was pregnant and to not call this young man anymore because he was going on a mission. I was also raped as a young adult and went to the bishop for help. His response was that god was telling him I was not raped and that I needed to confess my sins. bishops are not trained in sexual assault. They do not have degrees or take classes on how to counsel a rape victim. I think this where the church falls short and policies need to change. Instead of tearing this article apart, think about how this article is bringing up a valid point of where the church needs to improve upon. Women most certainly are held a different standard than men in the church. These things do happen and the “Patriarch” has to be more compassionate towards women.When I went to Rick’s the school was not compassionate towards women but did coddle the men especially return missionaries. When a woman and return missionary were caught in compromising positions, the woman was sent home and the return missionary was counseled to get married as soon as possible. I have sat in the administration office listening to this, so it does happen!
Helga, I am so sorry for your experience. =( I think more than the rapist is going to experience consequences for your unjust vilification. God bless you.
My sister was raped. After a stake dance. She’s sweet and caring and back before rules where driving to and from dance…people could only drive their own siblings or a leader had to be present…she was driving. A guy asked for a ride home. It wasn’t in a state where there is a chapel on every corner. BY the time she got to his house she needed to use the restroom. When she was done he made his attack AFTER having disconnected his phone. He lied about parents being home, he trapped her in the house, he had apparently done this (we’d later learn) with multiple people. His leaders admonished him to go live with Grandma in Arizona…meanwhile…her Bishop asked her what she was wearing. Oh, it’ real. And it’s a huge problem. And it is being kept as hushed up as catholic priests diddling little boys.
I disagree. There is no way to know how many sexual assaults happen on an LDS campus for the previously mentioned problems that women would stand to lose a lot including continuing their education if they were to report it. It could be far greater despite the assumed lack of illicit substances because of the increased patriarchal social views held by the church. It clearly is a patriarchal bias in our society that leads us to treat rape the way we do. It is also clear that our society allows rape of women because of the views held by men toward women (and women toward women).
Anyone who would claim, “sexual assault happens because of human nature” needs to check their personal nature. It is a common psychological occurrence that one will take his own personal beliefs (thinking rape as a normal human activity) and generalize it to the whole of society as a means to feel accepted as part of a group. Society and societal norms are established by human beings. They are subject to invention. Since it is proven that a patriarchy is just one of the vast arrays of human societal arrangements, it is clearly not human nature to treat women in such a manner. Anyone with a working understanding of world cultures and sociology would understand that. You are probably mormon and therefore personally offended when someone offers insight that paints your church in a negative light. You’ve been told your whole life to believe what they tell you. It probably is ingrained in you that rape is part of human nature as a way of avoiding the shame and pain that rape within a church setting will cause if people believe otherwise. Open your mind and look around a little.
Well said, Brian! This article sounds like it comes from an anti-Mormon feminist, not a Mormon male.
“It is the woman’s responsibility to be a guardian of both men and women’s virtue.”
Nonsense. Any male who thinks that he can’t control his own thoughts is pathetic. I’ve spent years in the Middle East listening to those types of arguments. You think women are oppressed here? Women in the LDS faith are treated extremely well.
I’ve been Mormon my entire life and I’ve also been taught my entire life that I alone am responsible for my thoughts and actions.
You need to get out more, my friend. If you really are a Mormon, you are doing a disservice to the Church by spreading this kind of false information.
Nothing smacks of smug ignorance like someone lecturing abuse victims and their advocates about how illegitimate their experiences are…
While your points are valid there are a few issues.
1. Yes the boys are taught that, but unfortunately many never follow and in fact ignore it in a way all together. I have sat there and listened as my cousins talked of their conquests and stealing girls from their friends all in the name of *fun*. They consider it socially acceptable unfortunately due to the culture they grow up in mixed with the church that unfortunately attempts to teach virtue to all and doesn’t always properly portray it.
2.The article may not mention what happens to the male and yes the LDS church does tend to try and solve the issue but there is much skepticism every step of the way.( I have seen this several times through personal experience)
3. The article doesn’t imply that it is more common in the LDS community. The LDS community is being used as an example because it is the culture that the writer knows the most and can take examples from the best because he grew up in it.
4.The curfew has been ignored before will be ignored again. She may not have even mentioned that they both ignored curfew either in attempt to alleviate some of the trouble caused or it did not cross her mind when reporting about it. Again in the example used she was looked at which much skepticism.(Though the article should of mentioned the curfew, I agree with that).
5.The religious patriarchy isn’t so much as not addressing the issue or trying to ignore it. It is more of they don’t have the view to properly address and understand it in it’s entirety and unless matriarchy is brought into the fold much more in our culture LDS and otherwise, rape will continue to be an issue that will never get addressed properly and to the full extent needed.
Agreed, people like to spice things up because it gets us talking and reading.
Unfortunately a lot of people unfamiliar with the real culture or those looking for confirmation bias against the church may take this to mean mormons are misogynistic and rapists.
Brian, while you may never see this, your response personally hurt me. I was raped in a situation very similar to Jane’s hypothetical one, where I was put on trial and traumatized by my bishopric and the honor code board. I almost lost my scholarship and education because someone else forced their self on me. I have been in therapy for 7 years due to this incident and still struggle with PTSD and panic attacks. It’s bad enough to assaulted, but to then be put on trial for it by the people you seek help from, is incredibly messed up.
Nothing happened to the RM who assaulted me–I was even refused a request to transfer wards because having to continue attending church with this man was traumatic for me. They said I was not exempt from the ward boundaries.
Also, in Utah alone, the rape rate is 12% higher than the national average, though I don’t have the exact number for BYU, it is higher than average which is especially surprising when you consider that more often there is no alcohol or drugs involved.
While it’s important to have faith in your beliefs and the people who serve within them, discounting the experiences of others to protect your own constructs is actually part of the definition of rape culture. And my Bishop being more concerned about asking what I personally ‘did’ to entice this man into assaulting me than if I was even emotionally okay, does not support your statement of universal concern for the flock. I did nothing to entice that man, but even if I had, the responsibility for his actions should be placed on him, not the victim. I was even temporarily labeled as a ‘predator’ and they were concerned about ‘protecting other young men from my seductions’. There was no concern for my well being.
You don’t have the statistics nor personal experience of what you are talking about, yet you just denounced all the personal experiences of individuals that violate your conditions. How is that Christ like love? It felt like a slap in the face, reading that. I might sound dramatic or overbearing, but I seriously hope you put more thought/consideration into your posts in the future.
There’s no such thing as righteous dominion in a dating/marriage relationship. There’s nothing righteous about wanting to dominate over one’s spouse or lover. Plus what they teach in church and what they practice in real life and in church disciplinary councils are two very different double standards This article is spot on. The LDS Church puts forth a lot of effort to maintain the appearance of respecting women. I have seen story’s of this happen time and time again, and this isn’t even the worst of them. I keep my mouth shut about it because I live in a predominantly LDS community and it will cost me my job if I say anything.
Being a man it’s easy to come to your conclusions. However, being in Young Women’s and as Relief Society President I have seen many women forced to take the heavier guilt…even if she was raped.
Listen up here kiddo, something like this almost happened to me when I was in high school with another Mormon boy. He was not guarding his virtue, as he should’ve learned according to your claims that they are taught that more than the young women. This subject usually takes up 1-2 months in my ward for the young women. In the strength for youth booklet it has a small section for the young men, but a very long one for the young women, addressing many types of ways to guard your virtue, including on dressing in clothes that go down to your knees and cover the shoulders to keep the men’s minds from wandering into bad places, blaming their unholy thoughts on us for the way we dress, even if there’s no outfits that for that description in your stores because you don’t live in utah. But the men’s section has about 2 types, one of which we are accountable for, so your point is pretty invalid. I’m not saying that girls should dress in short shorts and crop tops to test the young men’s willpower, but it is their responsibility to watch their thoughts. Anyways, had anything happened if I let myself into that situation, not knowing what I was getting myself into, I know that I would be blamed for it, not by my amazing bishop, but by members of the ward, because of my many lessons on how to gaurd my virtue, but he might’ve remained somewhat innocent. I’m not saying that he wouldn’t be punished or called to repent, but he wouldn’t be blamed as much as I would be, even if I did scream for help and tell him no repeatedly unlike Jane in the article example.
Paul, this is an interesting analysis AND from a Mormon. Unfortunately, the analysis applies to Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and most any patriarchal religion. I dare say, you could just change the college (Notre Dame, Liberty University, Regents University) and the same would be true. Secondly, the asexuality of all the Western Patriarchal religions creates a wide open path to ignore women and treat them as second class within the religious context. Despite every one of these religion’s protestations, they treat women in that way. As Americans, it is easy for us to see this behavior in Islam or in Hinduism, but as you so aptly illustrate, it is strongly present in Mormonism, Baptists, Catholics, etc. One solution is to posit a feminine aspect in the deity, but that was soundly defeated and denied in our Judeo-Christian tradition around 800 BCE. Bringing it back creates some problems with the whole monotheism narrative. Thanks for a thoughtful post.
Dr. Darrel Ray, author of Sex and God
One of the potential beauties of Mormonism is that it has female gods in the modern theology. This gives some of us hope that we can change, bring her out, and undo her millennia old rejection. You’re right that as Mormons we would have to more fully embrace our polytheistic theology.
Of course we have a Heavenly Father AND Mother. Just because we don’t know her name doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist!! Where do you think all the “spirit children” come from??? Hello….think about that for just a moment. Also, do you really think that the MAN is the sole creator? Who on earth creates the babies? Women. Who is more intuitive and gentle and nurturing by nature? WOMEN. Of COURSE we have a Heavenly Mother! Yes, we don’t talk about her much, but I like to think that Mormonism reflects more on her than other religions do…at least in my limited experience. Maybe I’m naive to say that, but I can only make that statement based on what I know. I’ve always been taught both by my parents and my primary leaders in church that we have Heavenly PARENTS. Meaning a father and mother…..no different than our own families here on Earth.
In a LOT of my yw’s lessons growing up we always heard about heavenly mother. Someone Heavenly Father loved so much he did not want her name being used in vain. You’re so right Mormonism does bring her up often. To that I am grateful.
I was raised LDS. I practiced this particular religion in three different states: Texas, Nevada, and Utah. And, in all honesty, a “Heavenly Mother” was hardly ever mentioned. This religion practices and propels an agenda of patriarchy. That is just an undeniable fact. Furthermore, if you’re suggesting that Mormonism reflects and teaches about a “Judeo-Christian” female deity more than any other religion, you are sorely, sorely mistaken. And yes, that, in fact, does make you naive. You are making a statement based on your very limited amount of knowledge on Christianity as a whole.
This brings to mind the recent Montana case where a 49 year old teacher was sentenced to only 30 days jail time for raping his 14 year old student. United States culture at large is still patriarchal, meaning rape culture is alive and well.
There is a problem here that needs to be addressed.
That is the old formulaic crap in media where the woman is
saying no, but does not really mean no.
Back in my college days I was dating a woman. We were making out
and she said stop. So I stopped. She then asked me why I stopped. I pointed out that she had told me to stop. She said that she did not really mean stop, she really meant slow down. That was the last time I went out with her. I just felt that we obviously were not communicating well and that it might lead to something … bad.
This one reason why I have always chosen to have sex only within the bounds of an established relationship. Yes, this means I no doubt missed out on having various experiences, but there are some experiences that I wish to avoid at all costs.
Quite frankly, I do not understand the desire to have sex with an obviously frozen/unmoving woman. It is the responsibility of both parties to avoid miscommunication and, when in doubt, assume that consent is NOT there.
Additionally, women need to understand the messages they are sending and realize that a guy that has been drinking is going to have lessened intelligence, judgement, and inhibitions. Given this set of truths, if it is not your intent for something to happen, avoid the circumstances. I consider doing so akin to not walking alone at night in bad neighborhoods. Yes, it will still be a crime if I’m robbed, but its a set of circumstances I would be wise to avoid.
Completely agree.
Richard, anything but a “Yes” is a no. A “maybe” is a no. A “wait…” is a no. Silence is a no. There’s never a blurred line because all you have to say is “do you want to…”
Here you are just a perfect example that supports the author. You are blaming the victim. I have every right to have a few drinks at a friends house, even a man I don’t know very well, late at night, in a one on one setting, wearing barely anything if I want to and I shouldn’t have the fear or forethought of getting raped. If I were a man hanging out with a male friend, drinking late at night in my boxers, you wouldn’t say “Dude, watch out, you might get it in the butt.” It’s not something we, as women, should anticipate as part of normal, human interaction. You did the right thing when you stopped when she said stop. That’s all there should be. Anything outside of that scenario, that is anything other than stopping, is rape. Plane and simple. I shouldn’t have to expect to be robbed either but equating rape to robbery just goes to show how little you really know about rape.
Meagan, I don’t think Scott was engaging the victim at all. He was simply sharing advice which could, if applied likely spare a woman from the horrors of rape. The violation reverberates far longer than a robbery (unless the robber is also a rapist or a murderer) You certainly have the right to be where you’d like to be and wear what you want to wear…I wouldn’t compare drinks alone with a man you barely know wearing little to nothing to robbery…I’d compare it with Russian roulette. And I’m a woman. And I advocate women and men (and young women and men) use as much common sense as possible. For example…I teach my son he doesn’t need to be doing anyone because five hundred times twelve times eighteen is quite the penalty for a consensual relationship. I have also let him know that if he ever rapes or molests I will be first in line for the defense letting them know that he was warned…now…men actually would be wise to avoid ANY and ALL scenarios where they could be accused of raping or molesting. Sooooo really, common sense on both sides? A very good thing.
Meagan I love your comment. So eye opening about two guys drinking in their boxers and not being at risk. It made me wonder what’s the opposite scenario where two women drinking in skimpy PJ’s…we don’t put blame on one of the women saying “what a slut she was really trying to seduce you and make turn you (the other woman) into a rapist. Be careful she’s just asking for it”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/29/montana-teacher-rape/2730039/
I just read your blog yesterday, and then today I saw this article on USA Today about a high school teacher having an ongoing relationship with a 14 yr. old girl who later killed herself and the judge saying that she was “older than her chronological age” as he handed out a 30 day sentence to the man. Wow. What a commentary on the attitude of ‘blame the victim’.
Thank you for writing this. The exact same thing happened to me with my fiancee’ when I was going to a singles ward. After he held me down and violated me he said ” It is ok to be Gay as long as you do not practice” Then he said, “having a fag hag like you will make me credible” I kicked him out of my house that he broke into, threw his ring at him and called off my wedding. After that I stopped going to church. I knew that being the Victim I would be persecuted, and that he would be the victim. Well I was right. Rumors spread about me like wildfire. I was the Temptress. I was put on suspension. He ended up marrying another girl only three months later. I was accused of being a lesbian. A little over 4 weeks ago I finally got my confirmation that I am no longer a member of the LDS Religion. I am happily married and I live a good Guilt Free Life. That Rape changed me, and I struggled to trust men again, and women as well. But the double standard the LDS church has is not one I will never live by again.
Emily I am so sorry you had such an awful experience and that you were treated so poorly by those who should have loved and cared for you.
Sexual repression often causes illegitimate behavior, and in the case of your rapist it certainly did. I see such damage caused by the LDS church in its maniacal denial of healthy sexual expression. You are the victim of it.
I’m glad you got out of the church, but I’m sorry you were so maligned and victimized by your fellow church members. So sad.
I am horrified on your behalf and Daaaang it’s horrible! HORRIBLE!!! You experienced an ultimate lose-lose. Rape is totally horrid…but if he hadn’t raped you and you had gotten married…and contracted aids from him (because he will so clearly not be faithful to a woman) that would have been betrayal in a different package. I am so sorry. All those people who judged you erroneously? They will have to reach a point where they examine their views on rape and the treatment of victims and repent of being so judgmental or they seriously forfeit all the hold dear. I am glad you found happiness. I truly am. I am glad you found someone to love and trust. I don’t even know you and yet this issue is close enough to me that my heart hurts for you. (I realize it’s new for me to read your story and old for you. Still. I’m genuinely horrified that this is even a part of your past.) I have had three loved ones impacted by this hush hush topic. Fortunately two out of three eventually caught up with Bishop’s who were as horrified as I am by the rape issue. I wish you a joyful, healing, happy life. I don’t even know if you’ll see this, but still, I wish it for you. I also wish for the eventual ability in you to separate those horrible small minded judging bots from Christ and his outstretched arms. I am working where I am to change people being judgmental…to gently call them out. I am also an advocate for the protection of women and children. My ripple may not be that extensive…but as Mother Theresa says, “What we may do may only be a drop in the ocean, but if we did not do it the ocean would be one drop less.” I wish for you peace in your heart. I’m so sorry that you experienced this and horrified that he violated you and then went for a new girl and was married in three months. (His own immersion therapy?!?!) I take comfort in the scripture that declares, “The liar shall be thrust down to hell.” Maybe I shouldn’t put it in quotes because I haven’t verified the exact wording…but I’m too lazy to check. The gist? Liars are going to hell. And most Rapists are the worst kind of liars…
Fully agree
Paul and Atticus, thank you. Thank you. It means so much when men empathize, understand, stand with us, are active allies, speak up.
Boys need good men as role models. I’m egalitarian. I also understand we all relate easiest to those most like ourselves. Good character, compassion, protecting others, that’s something we all should model and teach, men and women. However, a boy growing up seeing unprincipled men, not good men, may internalize “I’m supposed to be like the men, that stuff the women do/teach is for women”. This is no different than a girl who only ever sees male mathematicians and then might think a math career is just for men. So thank you for educating the public, defending those hurt, and being role models.
@Emily: Wow. So sorry the bum got the better of the situation. And my sympathy for what happened to you and how it was handled. Not right.
I am female. I had a similar experience and never reported it to anyone because I was afraid of being blamed and did not want to go through the humiliation. I had to tell my Bishop when I went on a mission. I still carry the scars.
Two weeks ago I sat in on the Young Women class with my daughter. The lesson was on the Law of Chastity. Some things were said that I did not agree with but kept quiet. I wish I had spoken up, because after church my daughter brought up the topic of the lesson. During the lesson she thought the same things I did and she said nothing either. I learned my lesson and from now on I will speak up when something does not sit right.
The girls were told to dress so the boys won’t stare and be aroused. I agree in modesty BUT are the boys being taught the same things as the girls? Boys dress immodestly also. A girl mentioned that when she is with her brothers in a store or where ever, and a cute, immodestly dressed girl goes by the brothers stare with their tongues hanging out and she hits them to stop.
Well, the boys need to be taught to turn the other way and have the will power to not stare and lust.
A priesthood holder was in the room and told a story about Pres. Kimball, when Kimball was an Apostle, he was at a Stake Conference and a lady was dressed immodestly and all the men were staring at her. Pres. Kimball actually went over to this lady and told her that her way of dressing was distracting to all the men and took the Spirit away from the meeting. Kimball asked the lady to go home and change. The priesthood holder in the room during the lesson then said if an Apostle can be distracted and stare then what is to stop an average male member? What?! WRONG! Now, why not address the men and tell them it is wrong to stare at women no matter how the women dressed and they really need to work on their will power and turn the other way, get busy doing something, anything.
Double Standard! Our daughters are being taught this rubbish!
And that judge who said the girl was looking and acting older than she was, and participated needs to be fired or voted out of his position. The male teacher seduced a child! The girl was underage! The teacher violated the trust parents have in teachers and violated the student/teacher relationship. It does not matter if the girl acted willingly. The teachers is a rapist and a pedophile! I hope the girl’s family sues the teacher for everything and ruin him. The teacher deserves nothing less, and the judge – well, I hope the people get rid of him. The judge is an idiot.
I love this! Thank you.
My heart goes out to anyone dealing with this problem or anything related. I recently was disfellowshipped for some actions that happened with my (now ex) girlfriend. It wasn’t the same situation with one person violating the other, but I know that both of us feel like 50% victim and 50% instigator. It is a terrible state of mind and I can’t wait to return to full faith and fellowship next Aug!
I feel that it is awesome that you are trying to fix the ‘assuming’ and ‘blaming’ complex that happens too often in our world. I wish the best to you in your endeavors. I also hope that you don’t go on such one-sided rampage that you ignore the needs of men. I certainly am not bragging with any guys about this, and I thoroughly and completely wish that I could undo what happened.
I don’t mean to say that I wish she had to go to a disciplinary court like I did and face the same punishment, but I mean that I think it is equally important to not just assume that the guy is the guilty one and that the girl is less to blame. That is not always the case. My point is that ff we can just ensure that every case is equally investigated for both parties, that would be just great. 🙂
A similar question would be: Is it always right to give custody of kids in a divorce to the woman because she will do more good with them than the man? (Same sort of careful examination is required).
-MW
I agree with this article on most of its points. My sister was raped at 17, the questions asked were 1. We’re you wearing revealing clothing? 2. Were you kissing/ necking? Well who cares what she was wearing, or if they were passionately kissing?! She did NOT want to have sex, she did NOT leave the house with the expectation of having sex, and when she said NO to having sex it did NOT stop it from happening… I do remember growing up in the church yw’s leaders telling us to ‘dress modestly’ because we put ‘dirty thoughts’ into the young men’s mind, that we had to have high morals for ourselves so that the boys would have high morals… I am sorry… But I CHOSE to have high morals without a dress code. Men should be in charge of their OWN decisions. That pressure should not be on women! I think the church needs to rephrase its stance on women’s modesty… I think modesty has more to do with preparation for the temple rather than what thoughts it puts in men’s minds. Just my opinion. I also agree to a certain extent that the church needs to get more with the times when it comes to women in the church. I’m not asking for priesthood rights as a woman. I’m asking for less pressure on women, and more trust.
However- I would like to make it known that I do have a strong testimony in the teachings of this faith. I am regular attending member, and I love the idea of eternal families. I have questions of my own of course, and I know I’ll always have them just like most members. My post is not meant to offend anyone in any way. I can see both sides of this article. There are a few things I agree with and 100% do not agree with. A naturally born man cannot give childbirth no matter how badly he wants to, there are a few things that as women we just cannot do no matter how hard we try. I think it’s time we recognize those things.
Any way..l just my thoughts…
Your thoughts are spot on. Thank you for your comment.
The funny thing is that this entire post could have been written without ever mentioning the word “Mormon” once. The author had to contort his argument to make it appear to apply to Mormom culture. The fact of the matter is that pretty much every country/society in the world had been dominated by males since the beginning of history. And the fact remains the certain men in all of these societies have mistreated, raped, and dominated women. But to try to indicate that this is primarily a problem of Judeo-Christian Christian, let alone Mormon cultures is hilarious when one considers how women are treated in Muslim countries, India, China, most African countries, and the list could go on. To try to imply that this is some how a problem of religion is just short-sighted.
The post also illustrates the author’s lack of understanding of how a true patriarchy works. It is not system of domination but of separate roles. Views on rape and sexual assaults may be a problem in broader societies, but has nothing to do Mormon patriarchy.
From Atticus: You’re right, this is not a Mormon problem. I began the article by stating I was showing how it looks in a Mormon context — perhaps I was not clear enough. I did this because I was writing for a Mormon blog and I’m a Mormon. I also never said this was only a Judeo-Christian problem. The piece says it’s a patriarchy problem, and our patriarchy happens to be Judeo-Christian. I am considering what you said about patriarchy being about different roles and find it without merit. The fact is in ANY patriarchy men have most, if not all, of the leadership posts. I have spent time in Iraq, a much stronger patriarchy than ours, and the biases and problems it created with rape were worse.
I grew up Mormon. My family history includes handcart pioneers, polygamists, and devotion to this religion. I left it by choice – officially – 30 years ago because of my enlightenment about the LDS patriarchy. It saddens me to see how much time has passed without any change to the official church dicta. I used to sit through Standards Nights where the buttered bread was the metaphor for “used goods,” just like the articles’ “chewed gum” reference. I was raised by Church leaders to believe that if there were pre-marital sexual transgressions, the sin would be on the “girl’s” head . Not the male’s. think even about how The Church refers to the female gender: not “women.” “Girls,” “Ladies,” “Sisters.” When I decided I wanted to be a “woman,”was when I started changing and consciously changing my paradigm. It heartens me, however, to read this article, WRITTEN BY AN ACTIVE MALE LDS. MEMBER. Maybe there is hope yet for positive change in that culture. As for me, to quote something I learned at BYU back in 1972: “I have lived and learned so much [more] that the little thoughts don’t fit me any more.”
Than You So Much For Posting!
Funny how the police didn’t think she was raped, her friends didn’t think she was raped, her church leaders didn’t think she was raped, and the whole rest of the world didn’t think she was raped. But as long as you say “I was raped” (despite not resisting or putting up any fight at all) then it was rape.
Your “unbiased and rational” approach to explaining the plight of women in a “patriarchal” organization (I guess you’ve never heard of Relief Society) is pathetic. Being a person who dated a beautiful young woman who was raped I find this article both ignorant and offensive.
Sad how no one thought it was rape… We have a huge problem because of it.
Nice article, but it represents a minority of thought within the LDS faith. If you want to hear the legit facts of how much freedom that women in this church receive, then REASEARCH what the OFFICIAL church leaders say about such issues that people have. I suggest getting the facts from someone who has seen it all and served with THOUSANDS of women of the church throughout the world. Sheri Dew She says it best and, quite frankly, much better than you. http://seek.deseretbook.com/sheri-l-dew-what-do-lds-women-get/i
Did the author not quote Sister Dalton twice? Wasn’t she the Young Women’s President when we quoted her? Wouldn’t she be more of authority than Sheri Dew? When was the last time Sheri Dew spoke in conference? Never. Who are the YW listening too? Sister Dalton. What talks are being taught in YW’s classes? Sister Dalton talks. I think it is fair to say there was plenty of quotes from the leadership that is directly involved with the YW.
I’m not sure how her talk addresses sexual predators, anon. The denial I see on this page is evidence of why this is such a problem. People don’t want to admit that sexual assault happens in our Church the same amount as anywhere else in the world. God does not remove a man’s weakness or agency once he makes them a bishop or stake president or even a prophet. Often their mistakes as leaders are innocent and have minor consequences, but they also are allowed to really mess things up too. If the members aren’t sustaining them by informing them of problems, then we aren’t doing our part as members.
thank you for being a human who gets it. this was spot on. sadly this feels like a problem that is being addressed more by women than men, even though it will take both for things to change. it is so sad how conservative religious cultures feel like they are doing the right thing when in many ways they are perpetuating the problems that lead to rape and sexual violence. fortunately, i feel like a lot of people are open to learning about why certain ways of talking about modesty, women and chastity are detrimental to the human spirit. this is a great addition to a necessary dialogue.
I don’t think the guy should be prosecuted. While i do not doubt the story of her being raped. The police were right not to prosecute. There is no evidence. She didn’t struggle so she wouldn’t have any bruising. She didn’t scream so no one heard her cry for help. While the chances are that she was in fact raped…. well i’ll say this. It isn’t what i believe…. it is what i can prove. And if you can’t prove it, you can’t prosecute it. Just look around at the world we live in. A man can be accused of being a sexual predator with no evidence against him, he loses his job, he loses his family, he can be arrested…. and then aquitted of all charges. He is a free man with no family and no job now… because someone lied. Its that reason as to why they didn’t prosecute. Its like when a girls says “just cause i get piss face drunk doesn’t mean i want to be raped.” I will say “well of course… no one asks to be raped… otherwise if you asked for it… it wouldn’t be rape now would it. But it sure as hell is a bad idea to get passed out drunk with a bunch of men whom you don’t know aren’t willing to rape you. It isn’t your fault… but you sure made it a lot easier for a predator to get at you… and they always go for easy prey.”
The story isn’t about Joe at all. The story is about the way Jane was treated after she was raped.
You mean how she was questioned if she fought back? why she didn’t scream? why she was over there… you know questions any police officer should ask to avoid arresting an innocent person…
For all we know… she wasn’t raped at all.If a girl came and said i was raped… i’d ask her “where? by whom?” if she said “joe, but i didn’t scream or do anything to stop him.” i’d be like “well what the hell were you doing? why were you there? why didn’t you scream?” just because a women is questioned doesn’t mean its a sexual bias. If i am attacked by some random person in an ally way, you know what they are gonna ask me… “why the hell were you in an ally at 1 am in the morning?” Standard questions that people want to have turned into a sexual bias.
I invite to read some of the comments that were left on this post.
Getting attacked in an ally is a lot different from being raped by someone you know and trust. A lot of women freeze up when they are raped – hence the no screaming or fighting back.
You’re absolutely right. A woman should always fight back against someone who is trying to take advantage of her. But she doesn’t, because she’s raised in a culture that teaches her not to. We live in a society where women make 80 cents to a man’s dollar and yet a woman who openly expresses her discontent about it is labeled as an extremist. This world doesn’t teach women to fight back. If a boy gets in a fight then its just a part of him growing up and becoming a man, if a girl gets in a fight then she’s trailer trash. Women are taught not to complain when a stranger calls them sweetheart or dear or honey, they are taught to just let it go. Because a woman who says, “I would prefer if you didn’t call me that,” is ostracized. She’s uptight or a bitch or “crazy”. I don’t care if we define rape as not being rape unless the woman fights back, but the society that makes that distinction damn well better be teaching it’s women how to fight back and not acting uncomfortable when she does.
This email brought up many painful memories for me. I can understand how the woman took a month to come forward with sharing that she was raped. When I was young I had sex with my boyfriend. Completely planned and consentual. I was active lds. Afterwards I didn’t want to do it again. There were many times that we would be intimate and I would tell him to stop, and tell him no farther, etc… He never listened. I was extremely emotionally dependent on him so I felt liked I had no choice. He expected it. I had to give it. Looking back I realize that the reason I left feeling horrible and upset and depressed was because I was being raped.
I hope the discussion of rape can include more stories of being raped by someone you love and trust and have previously had sex with. I always have felt such anger towards him and I’m just now realizing… Thank you.
By the way, personally in this situation, I would feel that if I felt that I was raped, I should have told him afterwards that I was uncomfortable and felt raped. Otherwise he might genuinely not know- and since I kept going back to him and doing the same thing,
I don’t know. I just wish more girls would be able to say stop it to the men.m(and vise versa.)
I am all for women to be considered and treated as equal with men. That statement does not mean however that they be given every single opportunity that men have and vice versa. Men and women can have different roles and responsibilities and still be considered equals.
“The privilege means people ask, “Why did she go over that late?” and not “Why did he invite her over that late?” It asks “why didn’t she fight back?” and not “Why didn’t he stop?” It asks “Why did she drink so much?”, and not “Why did he give her doubles all night?”. It asks “What has she done with boys in the past?”, and not “Why did he pick her?”. It asks “Why didn’t she call the roommates for help?”, and not “Why would she want them to walk in to see her naked and being raped?”. It asks “Why did she do nothing?” and not “How scary that must have been, being raped by a friend?”.”
I think this paragraph shows a very one sided view of the example given. You painted a very nice picture that clearly represents an LDS woman and very ambiguously describes a guy, clearly not stating if he was LDS and I believe that was key to the furtherance of your argument. In an interview with police and her bishop the questions should be directed to what she may have done and could have done to stop the sexual encounter. They wouldn’t be talking with both of them at the same time hence that type of question.
I think that your mention of the time the event occurred is also worth noting. Studies have shown that judgments and reasoning skills are greatly diminished when individuals get tired. Assuming now that the guy was LDS, they BOTH probably made choices that led to the sexual transgression and I think the tone of the article is set to place the blame on the male gender for every undesired sexual encounter and completely remove the females from blame.
I do believe that the article bears some merit and if it does nothing more than to spur discussion that is great but I believe that it is too biased. Any good argument will attempt to look at both sides not just pick the one that fits what they believe. Remember there is always two sides to a story.
In clear when you say that “women should not be given the same opportunities”, you are simply stating that men should keep all the authority, the power and the money, as well as all the decision making. On which grounds ?
Well that realy sucks
This was so imteresting to me. I followed along with the article and no alarm bells went off in my head at the line of questioning (what was Jane doing at his apartment? etc…) And then the author asks why the line of questioning wasn’t “why did he call her over late.at night”? Until this day, the thought would have never occured to me to question the man’s thought process or HIS dress or HIS actions. This is definately a discussion I will be having with my daughter today. Thank you!
To all of those who were offended by church representation in this article:
You are part of the problem by ignoring it or trying to reframe it as a “local” problem in “certain” wards. Instead of getting defensive about how the article illustrates typical church leaders’ handling of issues surrounding sex and rape (as a microcosm of a much bigger cultural problem), why not call your leaders and tell them that this issue needs to be realistically and empathetically addressed, talk to your sons and daughters realistically about sex and responsibility, reflect on how you think and feel about this problem, and be the agent for change in the way that the church handles these issues.
If we want to really deal with the problem in the church, we need to actively confront the fundamentally contrasting ways that young men and young women are “taught” about their virtue and value. The onus for the collective-cultural virtue for the faith, by and large, falls on women in Mormonism (and, sadly, other faiths). This is not only problematic, it’s destructive!
If you were offended by what was said in the article and how it was said, I ask you to seriously consider the truly offensive material in the article and address that with the same vigor that you used to come to the church’s defense.
Kati,
I just simply agree with you. Men are raised to be spoiled entitled child that can do what they please, and leave the burden of becoming pregnants, taking care of the house, raising the children, cooking, ironing and who knows what on women for not a dime and while they are sitting in the couch giving instructions or resting.
I think many women have had it with how things are going and the way they are treated in the workplace, at home or as sexual objects that can be disposed of at will. Plus with HIV and the current way things are, i think they are better off alone.
This is a constant and ongoing problem in the church. If addressing problems like this in the church offends you, or rattles your testimony, then maybe some people should ask themselves if they really have much of a testimony to begin with. I’m not trying to offend any one here, but lets be honest, we all will have a crisis of our faith from time to time, especially if your honest with yourself, and you ask yourself the really hard questions that come from not being afraid to get out there and experience life. This is actually natural and normal. It’s called cognitive dissonance, and it’s something that every intelligent human being has to learn to live with(example: one might think:
“if the church is true, then we shouldn’t be having problems like this. If we are, then the church obviously isn’t true. Since the church is true, Therefore this story must be false in some way.”)
Could it be, that an organization that saves souls could still have some major problems in it? Absolutely! You wouldn’t throw away a Ferrari, or a badly need work truck just because it has a hole in the radiator would you? You just try and fix the hole as best as you know how, and it might include some trial and error.
This is very black and white thinking, and we all engage in it.
Cognitive dissonance-is when we have two contradictory beliefs that create discomfort and stress in us.
We have a hard time accepting that this could happen to us, or in our church, but it does. This is why abuse thrives in secrecy. I am sorry that addressing these issue’s creates a crises in some people’s faith. People should not have to feel guilty over that. Having a crises of one’s faith is something that even apostle’s go through. It doesn’t make you bad. It just make’s you human. If people are feeling threatened about the validity of these story’s maybe it is more about their lack of faith then it is about the truthfulness of the story. I am not saying this to criticize the naysayers, ok? This is a very natural part of growing in one’s testimony, or knowledge of things,facing challenges like these. Growth is sometimes painful but necessary. Rather than fight over this, we need to work together to fix this.
Anyone who thinks LDS culture encourages rape at BYU has never been to college anywhere else.
Reply from Atticus: saying other places are worse doesn’t make another place not have a problem. That’s a logical fallacy.
Even though it doesn’t help my argument, I’ll let you know I’ve been to a non-LDS state school in VA. I’ve also lived in 10 states and 3 foreign countries.
But if patriarchy is the problem (that was the point, right?), wouldn’t you expect to find more problems at a university with a strongly patriarchal culture?
Posting Atticus’ reply: the stronger the patriarchy gets the more you can expect victim blaming, denial of the problem, and cover-ups. So you’ll never know how bad it is until the patriarchy cracks open. That’s the main point in the article–the ability to offend with impunity.
You’re not seriously suggesting rape is a bigger problem at BYU than at other universities–that it’ll “crack open” one day and we’ll find that our daughters were actually safer at Florida State all along.
I don’t think you’re helping your case by avoiding this critical question: Why, amid so much male leadership and so many gender-specific policies, are women safer where the church has more influence? That’s neither a rhetorical question, nor a trap. I honestly don’t know the
answer.
You might. However, how many assaults go unreported (to church leaders, police, etc.) because of the way that women are treated when they do report it. I ask you to please stop getting defensive about BYU and the church and look at the real issue that Atticus is speaking to–women ARE often shamed and blamed when they are victims of assault once they go to church leaders and other church authorities. The article is about changing the conversation in order to change the broader culture.
Considering the sexual and other privileges of Joseph Smith, no wonder women are badly treated and men get away with everything.
Atticus did not say that BYU encourages rape. He used BYU and the church as an example of how sexual assault is often dealt with in religious institutions–again, he’s using BYU and the church as microcosms of the greater problem. He wants the church to more realistically deal with the problem because he is a member of the church.
He isn’t damning the church or BYU–he’s saying that in bastions of morality and spirituality, we have the same problems in adequately and compassionately dealing with sexual assault. The subtext is this: if the Mormon church plays the shame and blame game when it comes to this problem, then this is a truly serious problem.
Yes it is the same everywhere… Except that women are not ostracised and blamed the way the LDS Church does. Maybe it is time to teach men to respect women better and to teach women to see clearly and protect themselves from the way men treat them.
This article is redidiculous and false! For you to claim to have knowledge of a confidential interview betweeen anyone and their Bishop is dishonest and deceitful. Having served several Bishops and served in Bishoprics I can attest that such knowledge and questions are not shared nor allowed to be written. An inspired Bishop would never ask such questions. For you to present this as a real case is a complete lie to sensationalize your point of view. May God have mercy upon you for stating such a ridiculous point of view. In the future seperate your opinions from the church’s. You obviously hold no leadership position in the “Mormon” Church. The Church of Jesus Christ does not tolerate sexual assault in any of it’s malignant forms!
There is nothing here that convinces me that you are a member of the church.
Bryan,
He didn’t present it as a real case. He presented it as a composite of real cases that he’s dealt with and heard about. It’s interesting to me that you call the article ridiculous and untrue without once examining how this problem really does play out in the LDS culture (and our patriarchal culture at large). You call into question the validity of the problem that Atticus is addressing instead of calling into question why women are treated this way when they report sexual assault.
As a rape survivor and member of the LDS church (now, non-practicing), I can testify that what Atticus is illustrating in this article is not only true, it’s widespread. Bryan, you’re complete misrepresentation of the article and clear lack of critical thinking about what it addresses is sad and astonishing, especially from someone who has held leadership positions in the church.
This is not a LDS issue but a cultural issue and would not be fixed with women in leadership positions. Women are far harder on their own sex then men are. If you want to stop rape then treat and prosecute every complaint as a rape. Based on this example there is no way to tell outside of her declaration that it was rape.
Being Buck Naked does not constitute as consent, yet it does put you in a dangerous situation. Just like counting a big wad of money on a street corner at 2:00 am does not constitute consent as robbery it is best not to put yourself in that position if possible.
A Bishp’s focus is on the individual and should have no roll in whether the purp is prosecuted. Just recognize that the defence attorney’s questions will be far harsher than anything outlined in this article.
This is why so much effort is put into prevention and limiting risk because in the end the situation cannot be undone and justice only comes later.
Please re-read the opening paragraph where it starts “As a lawyer…”
Or justice doesn’t come at all if you ARE the victim of rape. Why WOULD a victim come forward in our culture?
I agree that it is so important for any man, especially a leader, to first show his love and concern for the woman when she confesses to him that a man had sex with her and that she felt she was raped.
Starting with questions about how she got herself into that situation does sound to me to be insensitive of the woman’s fragile emotions and feelings of self worth at the time.
I agree with the author that this needs to be addressed in a way that can help all members especially those who are or who will be called as Bishops, to know how to best help woman who are in these situations and be able to love and help them in the way Christ wants them to, and knows will most effectively help the woman.
So I’m glad this topic is being addressed and its so sad how woman can be so hurt in this process.
I do agree also that woman are more vulnerable when they get in the situation that Jane was with Joe in the scenario in the article. I’m a student at BYU-Idhao and I don’t want woman to have to lose trust in men (because that’s one of the saddest things to see) but if you stick to the standards the prophets and the school have set, you really will be able to be protected from these situations, except for unfortunate instances where the man violently forces the woman to have sex with him. But at least those instances are much more rare and much easier for the blame to be out squarely on the man (though I know it still damages the woman’s feelings of self worth and can unfairly make her question herself even though she didn’t do anything wrong).
I agree with those who’ve commented that the tone of the article can come off as bashing on the patriarchal order of the LDS church, but I hear how the author is trying to help his own church’s culture and awareness on the issue.
I’ve always had incredibly sensitive, loving and wise Bishops who’ve helped me through a lot of embarrassing problems I’ve dealt with and tried to overcome. I wish everyone could have that blessing. But I agree with what Elder Holland said in one of his conferences talks that we need to be patient and understandin with the leaders in our church as God is patient with us.
I think it’s important to bring up issues like this, and I also believe we need to be sensitive to how much we generalize what we’ve seen, such as saying this is a problem of the structure of the church. The author may not have been saying that exactly but it came off that way to me a bit.
And to those who replied to this article saying it was ignorant and ridiculous, I feel you are using your emotions too much to try to express what you feel and it works more against you and what side you’re trying to represent.
I’ve read most of your articles and the phrase, “the philosophies of men mingled with scripture” come racing/screaming through my mind every time I do.
You might want to study how scripture comes to be. The phrase will take on a whole different meaning for you.
“a solitary deity is an asexual deity”
A solitary deity isn’t asexual, a solitary deity is a repressive deity. Mormons aren’t taught that heavenly mother doesn’t exist, quite the contrary. She does exist, but is under a gag order in relation to her children (and vice versa). She’s there, but don’t speak of her. She’s there, but she doesn’t speak. She exists, but has no actual power or role other than celestial uterus.
There is nothing asexual about that. There IS something very abusive about that, however. Male sexual domination and the silencing and control of women.
Conflating asexuality (which is a real orientation experienced by 1% of the population), is not only inaccurate, it’s offensive. Asexuality should not be equated with the idea of a broken view of deity or a broken anything–it’s a natural healthy orientation that is under represented and often stigmatized/treated with suspicion. Asexuality is about orientation–the desire (or in this case absence of desire) for others on a sexual level, NOT action/inaction or repression of any kind.
It’s important to make this distinction because there are many asexual people within the LDS church who believe themselves to be broken and completely alone. The concept (if it’s explored at all), is seen as a negative, something broken to be fixed. It’s not. Your broken god is not asexual. He’s an abusive spouse who silences his wife and gives her no actual power and disallows any evidence of her having agency in their relationship with their children. There’s a difference–a BIG difference.
Had to make that clarification. Excellent article otherwise.
Thank you for writing this. I have experienced being assaulted. I have experienced the questions steeped in victim blaming. I have experienced the confusion of not knowing the difference between sex and rape.
I believe it is important to teach men and women the difference. Consent to sex is not just the absence of a “no”, it is a clear and complete YES! If it isn’t a YES! for both people, it isn’t sex. Why would anyone besides a rapist want to force himself onto a woman (or a man) that isn’t enjoying her(him)self?
In Mormonism, the fear of sex and sexuality makes it very difficult to teach healthy attitudes and expressions of sex. And if you aren’t willing to teach what is healthy, it is impossible to know what isn’t healthy.
I really appreciated this post. How I wish that its message to get all the way to the top of the Mormon leadership. As it likely won’t, it gives me an unending sense of weariness knowing that modesty and rape culture will likely continue to be the operating manual of the church. 🙁
The major point is that if you break the rules and commandments bad things will happen to you. If they both just kept the curfew nothing would have happened. If you walk down a dark alley at night in the Queens your chances of getting jumped go way up. If you don’t drink the predators can’t get you drunk. If you stay away from evil it will have a harder time finding you.
If I never drive a car, I know I will get in a car accident right?
While the question of sexual privilege in a patriarchal society is nowhere close to being strictly a ‘Mormon problem’, as some of the comments have implied the author was saying (hello? Did you actually read the first couple of paragraphs?), this article does bring up the specter of something that is a Mormon problem (although they are not the only religion that has it). It is the question of ‘doctrine as taught’ versus ‘doctrine as lived’.
It’s ridiculous to question whether or not Mormonism is a patriarchy. There’s a Church calling of Patriarch, the vast majority of the Church’s leadership callings are limited to male members, pretty much all of the Church meetings and ceremonies are officiated by male officials…to an outsider, or to someone who is looking for a reason to point fingers, it’s easy to say that women have no power, they’re glorified chattel, etc. And, in a distressingly large number of cases, there are members of the Church whose behavior gives validity to those claims.
Doctrine, however, states that the ‘leaders’ of the Church are there to serve. Being a Bishop is not intended as some grace of privilege…it means you are responsible for the spiritual well-being of every member of your congregation. That doesn’t mean ‘the male members’…EVERY member. A priesthood lesson earlier this summer went into great detail about how any priesthood holder who wanted to honor his priesthood should go out of his way to assist the Relief Society in what they do, to support his spouse, etc etc. There’s a multitude of doctrinal declarations about how women should be shown every grace and respect possible. Beyond even that, however, is the very basic doctrinal statement of ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged.’
But we’re all human. Just as you can take a hundred CEO’s and give them the same resources to manage their company and they will not all succeed equally (and, indeed, some will drive their company belly-up in their haste to try and make it work better), you can take a hundred bishops and give them the same challenging situation of handling a case of rape or domestic abuse, and some will handle it brilliantly while others will revert to the ‘good ol’ boy’ background they came from, or the flawed (but often taught) notion that a Church leader can do no wrong…they’re human, they still have all the flaws inherent with that condition, and they’re going to make mistakes or handle situations based on the background they came from.
Which, yes, does create the environment that the author described. I have friends who’ve been victims of rape, and had to deal with confrontational bishops. I went to college with a man whose attitude toward the Mormon Church was one of implacable hostility, because the bishop of the ward where he grew up chose to turn a blind eye when his mother accused her husband of being abusive (including rape). I think his hostility is misdirected, but I understand it. I also have friends (and even family) who were victims of sexual assault, whose situations were handled with grace and wisdom by the authorities they approached about it, and who’ve gone on to have wonderful, happy lives.
The problem described by the author here is not a problem with the Mormon Church so much as it is a problem with the Mormon Culture. People like to pick and choose which doctrines they hold most dear, forgetting that the first and greatest commandments given by the Savior are simple points…Love God, and Love your neighbor. Nobody who truly understands that would ever contemplate raping anyone–nor would they treat women as some kind of lesser-valued entity. Get back to the basics, folks, and make sure your foundation is solid. Focus on the big ones, and let the rest of it settle in place around those.
Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t see in there that the guy got disfellowshipped/excommunicated. I am an active and believing LDS member, but it doesn’t seem right that Jesus forgave Mary Magdaline for being a prostitute, and evidence in the bible suggests he married her, but then somebody gets disfellowshed over something like this. I understand the sin, but we all make mistakes, and the point is to be better, and do better, and for everybody to be filled with love and compassion. It doesn’t sound like love to disfellowship somebody over something like that. It’s harsh. No amount of sin can enter into the kingdom of God, correct? So then it’s a good thing Christ atoned for our sins so we can return and live with God. But technically there is no difference between doing this, and lets say one of those ‘small sins’ when it comes to living with God. We still need to repent of even the small things or we can’t live with Him. You can be sorry enough for doing the sin without needing to get disfellowshipped and feeling like there is no hope.
I’ve been disfellowshipped over something I didn’t think was bad enough to warrant me getting disfellowshipped. It isn’t even in the same league as something like this, and I wasn’t even directly involved. Suffice to say, to me it wasn’t a good reason, and I truly didn’t/don’t feel that was what God wanted. More than anything I felt even more in despair, and more like I couldn’t be forgiven because of the guilt that the leaders put me through. I was younger, and more vulnerable. I still to this day feel it was wrong. That isn’t love. Period. God is a God of love. Yes he demands justice, but love and justice go hand in hand. As far as we read, Christ didn’t condemn sinners, or make them feel extremely guilty. He forgave them and told them to sin no more. I felt no love being treated the way I did. I lost trust in some of the leaders. Many of them looked down on me, and I did not feel once that’s what God was doing. Sure, I believe God was disappointed and sad at what had happened, but I can’t believe that this loving God would have acted so harshly. That’s why we repent. Only God can forgive you, and it feels as though some of the leaders usurp their authority and think that they’re acting in the name of God but fall far from it. Council people, and help them get better, do better, and be better. Don’t take everything from them and expect them to be okay with it.
Paul,
Your clarifications have been great. I still have a couple questions:
1. Can you give me a couple examples of non-patriarchy societies? Is society at large today non-patriarchal in your mind?
2. Do you agree that fewer LDS women are raped than society at large? And that your point is that once it does happen, the LDS patriarchy doesn’t handle it as well as they should?
Brian
Reply from Atticus (the author):
1. The Mosuo in China are a matriarchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo_women
2. There is no evidence to support the idea that LDS women are at
less risk of sexual assault than society at large. We like to believe
we’re better off, but we really don’t know. Once it does happen, I
know we don’t handle it well. There are studies that show sexually,
we don’t differ much from the rest of America. But if we don’t handle
sexual assault well, could that put Mormons at greater risk of being
sexually assaulted? I tend to think so. Look at all of the brave
women who commented on this article and shared their stories — we
have a problem; it needs to be fixed.
After reading through (most of) the comments, I feel a positive story needs to be shared. My sister went through a nearly identical scenario. However, after the rape, when she sat down with a bishop, the questions were “Are you okay?” “Does his bishop know?” “Would you prefer to speak to someone else about this?”
She was referred to an amazing therapist with LDS Social Services. Even so, due to the horrific experience, she continued to deal with issues for years afterwards (sexual identity issues, eating disorders, feelings of low self-worth, and so on). She has moved to several different wards, and has had incredible bishops who give her love, respect, and counsel when she is in need. Rather than being disfellowshipped, she has been encouraged to continue on her path toward healing, serve a mission, and help spread awareness with her story. Her bishops have been beacons in an extremely dark time in her life.
I know the experiences you refer to are real. I know they should not be minimized. I fully believe the LDS culture (not the gospel, mind you, but the culture of the church) doesn’t fully understand the role of women in the Plan of Salvation, and the equality of their role. I know women themselves within the culture sometimes see themselves as lesser. These are real issues that need to be dealt with. The education of both men and women in the church needs to continue (thanks for being a voice that continues that education!). I just want to point out that this is not the rule. We are making progress. There are leaders in the church that are doing it right. Give them kudos.
There is a lot to learn from both sides. We will see the admirable and the less-than-admirable.
I think there is a general misunderstanding of the purpose of the interview where Jane was depicted as a victim of a patriarchal society. The interview is about our personal responsibility. It’s not an inquisition. It’s not a about “justice” for other parties involved. It’s not about blaming the person confessing. It’s about our own, “my” responsibility in the situation and being honest with ourselves so we can come to Christ for reconciliation for that responsibility.
Were there motivations or actions that Jane brought to Joe’s house. Did she have some responsibility in the situation? This does not exclude the other party in any way but the “repentance” or “confession” interview is for Jain, not Joe.
In this light questions make sense about Jane’s motivations and actions. Again, this does not relieve Joe of his actions or motivations in any way.
I think sometimes the bishop is thought of as a referee or some kind of civil judge. In a judge context the questions would seam accusatory and biased.
It’s very painful to own responsibility. We often want to place it anywhere but on our own shoulders. It’s painful.
When we are victims we want justice. We want the blame to find it’s owner and somehow make them pay in a way that can give back what we lost. But it never does give it back.
In both of these situations the answer is the Atonement. If we have blame to be placed on our shoulders, Christ can take it on himself. If we have been a victim, Christ can heal us.
This article definitely brings up some good points but seems to be one sided in its argument. I’m not commenting to argue or say that I am right but I feel the need to say that while I do recognize that rape happens in the LDS church and that guilt tripping the women who are victims also happens neither the promotion of raper or the blaming of the victims is taught through church doctrine. As Libby shared in here comment, there are those bishops who know how to go about helping a victim of rape the right way. There are also many men who teach their sons or the boys in the quorums they teach that the responsibility lies with the boys to look away from a girl who is dressed immodestly and it is the boys job to not take things too far and to protect a girl’s virtue. Does this happen in every ward? Definitely not. But, it does happen!
While the author’s intent was probably not to vilify men or preisthood holders that is kind of how it comes across. I join with the others who have commented on the fact that the issue isn’t completely related to a patriarchal organization. To say that the patriarchal organization of the church is a major factor in some sort of rate culture is to imply that the church is fundamentally organized wrong which then by extension implies that the church is false. Am I wrong in my thinking? I could be.
Those who state that culture is the source of the problem have it right in my opinion. I’m sure that many of the points about sexism and victim blaming as mentioned here in this article likely existed long before the restored church. These things are cultural and sadly take a lot longer to change than we would like.
I do my best to live the principles and doctrines of the LDS church as I understand them. In all my years of learning and doing my best to live the gospel I have always viewed women as my equals. Just because I am a man and I get to hold the priesthood doesn’t mean I am better than any woman. just because my duties in the church are different than a woman’s does not mean that I have the right to think I am better than a woman or anyone for that matter. Sadly there are those men who for cultural reasons or even misunderstandings of doctrine reasons think that they are better than women and that they have the right to oppress women and take advantage of them. No one is perfect and there are many men who have it all wrong about where women fit into the plan of salvation but there are also many men who understand that we are all equals in the sight of God and we are all blessed with individual responsibilities and gifts. Let’s do our best to educate those don’t understand but let’s not say or imply that our church leaders are doing it all wrong. Faith needs to fit in to this discussion somewhere.
Actually Nathan, blame of the victim is part of church doctrine.
The book “the miracle of forgiveness” states that a woman who has been raped is no longer a virgin.
Other general authority’s have commented on how we should protect our virtue with our lives (not men mind you, just women)
The church hand book now states that a woman can no longer obtain an abortion from Rape, unless it is forcible rape. Witch eliminates most forms of rape.
The problem I have with this article is that it implies guilt on the part of the male 100% of the time. There are no allowances made for any other situation; in this article all men are rapists and will cooperate in covering up rapes.
A girl gets into an argument with her boyfriend over something trivial. She goes to a party and has sex with someone else to “get back at her boyfriend”. The boyfriend finds out, and in order to save face and keep her boyfriend, she says she was raped. Because laws and ordinances and regulations are already sloped and biased in favor of the woman, an innocent man is sentenced as a rapist and his life is forever ruined as he’s now a sexual predator.
A guy becomes a teacher because he wants to give back to the community that enriched him. He teaches 8th-grade history. One of his students doesn’t like the grade he gave her. She cries rape. There is no evidence that there was ever a point in time where he could have committed a rape. He has an airtight alibi that he was on the other side of the campus when the supposed rape took place. He is fired from his job, charges are pressed, and he goes to jail. No evidence (in fact a heap of evidence to refute it) and he still hangs.
A guy meets a girl at a party. they have a few laughs, they share a few drinks, they have consensual sex. There’s never a point where she says no. There’s never a point where he forces her. Days or even weeks later she regrets her decision to have sex with the guy for whatever reason and decides that it was rape. A very public arrest, a cut-and-dry trial, and he goes to jail and is on the registered sex offender’s list for life.
You hear stories like this all the time. To make sure that I’m not simply telling stories at recess, I’ll cite some sources:
Women receive preferential treatment in legal and criminal matters
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2144002
Paternity fraud is extremely common, and medical professionals abet it
http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/Globe_and_Mail_Moms_Little_secret_14DEC02.aspx
Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public vis-a The Reverse
Video depicts what happens when a woman spikes a man’s drink versus a man spiking a woman’s drink.
I was date raped at BYU something was put in my drink I woke up naked in a bathroom with no clothes in a house filled with people. I was devastated I told my Bishop and he had me apologize to the guy who did it. I felt horrible and wanted to be sure I was forgiven so I did as told. I totally felt like used goods that no one would want and remembered vividly the lesson in YW where everyone put their fingers in the frosting on a cake and got it dirty and nasty and then my leader asked if anyone still would want the cake. Our purity was compared to the cake once we were no longer pure a good worthy man would never want you. Why would he chose impure when he could have pure? I was abused as a child ( by an active LDS priesthood holder) Did that make me impure even though I did not want to be? I already felt used from that and was struggling with that. This returned Missionary and I had become close and he knew this about me. I think that is why he chose me. I was an easy target he knew I was vulnerable. I usually do not think about this but when I do it makes me sad for the girl I used to be and the lack of value I felt I had because of this. I am thankful that I found a man who loves and values me and does not make me feel like less. I love being LDS but even Bishops and leaders trying to do the right thing are human. I believe in a loving Heavenly Father and I do not believe he would blame girls and excuse boys for their behavior.
Maybe women don t want impure men either who have put their finger in too many cakes, as many do.
I am shocked at what i read about blaming a girl for being raped and asking her to apoligise to her rapist … that is the most crual and outrageous thing there is.
Now to accuse a man of raping a girl when he did not is also bad but many men take advantage of women who may be lonely or naive and treat them like objects they use and discard at will and then have the guts to insult them on top of it .
And that is horrific.
Anyway, i do not want to have anything to do with most men except the casual hello and chatting knowing how most behave and view women.
I have learned from a very young age how bad and hurtful men can be so it is my ticket to safety. I do not want to mix with them. That way, i am safe and whatever is left of me will remain unscathed….
T-88,
T-88, the problem is that in the hypothetical robbery case, defense attorneys don’t ask the victim, “but isnt it true that you were walking around town counting your money openly? in public? in the middle of the night? On a dark deserted street? And you didnt scream for help when the defendant reached for your money? Your roommates were just around the corner at the gas station, right? surely they would have come to your aid if you were really being robbed? And there’s no bruises or physical evidence that you fought back?”. Doesn’t it seem preposterous when we look at it like that? But those are the types of questions put to rape victims, all the time — including when well-meaning bishops ask probing questions to try to determine if it was really rape or if the woman sitting in front of them needs to “repent.” It is just as preposterous in that circumstance.
I really appreciate this article. I was raped when I was 18. It was a sunny afternoon. I was dressed very modestly. We were both active Mormons. I feel I have to clarify those points so people don’t get distracted asking those questions. Time, appearance, even sweat from a long hike didn’t save me like many say it will. I was certain that the authorities in my church and community would look for a way to blame me or call me a liar, so I didn’t report it. My beliefs were based on the things I’d heard others say about rape victims and the experience of a girl I’d known in junior high. My church leaders taught me that my appearance determined the self control of the males around me. I was taught the analogy of the chewing gum. I was terrified that what happened to me may have truly made me undesirable. I believed that my worth was completely tied to the value a husband would find in my body. When I finally told my mother about a year later she asked why I hadn’t told her sooner. I explained these lessons that I’d been given and it broke her heart. I don’t share this out of anger or a need for sympathy. I hope someone will see it and teach chastity in a healthier way. My husband was never taught anything about chastity. We grew up in the same city in Davis County, Utah. Knowing what happened to me didn’t change how my husband feels about me.
Paul.
What is your objective or point on this article?, I am confused
To treat women as equals.
All of this just reeks of codependency like no other. Wouldn’t you leave a man, or an environment that so blatantly abused your rights as a free human, as a woman, as a man, as an individual, as an organism born to this world, if those that adhered so strictly to its governance were, in fact, those most corrupt?
All churches, faiths, groupings, should teach love and respect, not proliferate the patriarch, the dominance, the entitlement. It’s sickening. Be in control of your own life: it’s you, not some man, woman, or genderless figure.
There shouldn’t be the need for an article to treat women as equals. There shouldn’t be an amendment to allow them a vote, to allow them to wear miniskirts without the fear of rape or fear of accusal of “asking for it.” This whole situation makes me sick. As a woman, as a human being.
Men and their muscles will always convince women that they need them, and that their muscles and their brains can repress them, manipulate them, rape them.
Even though I commend the writer for daring to write such an article, I, sadly, acknowledge the lack of potential it would have had, had it been written by a woman. And, therein lies the biggest problem. Why fight so hard to fit a square peg into the circle. Find new faith or better yet – build your own, just as Joseph Smith did.
Do it again. But do it better.
Maybe women don t want impure men either who have put their finger in too many cakes, as many do.
I am shocked at what i read about blaming a girl for being raped and asking her to apoligise to her rapist … that is the most crual and outrageous thing there is.
Now to accuse a man of raping a girl when he did not is also bad but many men take advantage of women who may be lonely or naive and treat them like objects they use and discard at will and then have the guts to insult them on top of it .
And that is horrific.
Anyway, i do not want to have anything to do with most men except the casual hello and chatting knowing how most behave and view women.
I have learned from a very young age how bad and hurtful men can be so it is my ticket to safety. I do not want to mix with them. That way, i am safe and whatever is left of me will remain unscathed….
Danielle, i so agree with you.
It is funny how they always tell women that a man would not want the cake cup type woman (ie who is not a virgin) and yet they never mention that maybe a woman would not want a men who is the cake cup type either .. and they probably would not if they knew all about them.
So why vilifiying women and not men for doing the same thing .. i just do not get it …
I ll never return to the mormon church anyway knowing of Joseph Smith plural marriages and other horrible things… So i am wasting my time blogging here … except for the fact that i once thought that in the mormon church women were treated properly… i was wrong on that .. that is for sure.. now that i know better
GRANDPA ON FIRE
Physical rape and programed ignorance are violent acts. A man rapes a girl, a woman. The physical act is conduit to his perception of women. Many men lead empty, unfulfilled lives. Rape is an act of rage kindled by an unfulfilled life.
“Woman’s degradation is in man’s idea of his sexual rights.
Our religion, laws, customs are all founded
on the belief that woman was made for man.”
Elizabeth Cady Stanton, a leading figure in the early women’s rights movement in the United States, penned those words.
At this moment, more than a million daughters of “The Mormon Church” are being conditioned to lives of slavery. What’s more, no one cares. Where no visible blood is shed, they go unnoticed.
The State of Utah is not a democracy. Dr. Jan Shipps, a sociologist studied the Mormons for over thirty years. Her conclusion; Utah is a theocracy. Nothing new. Everyone was aware of that fact before she wrote it. There are different forms of government. One is by, of, and for the people, the other is by the priesthood, of the priesthood, and for the priesthood..
Under the shadow of a loving condescension an authoritarian patriarchy conditions young female minds to devout obedience and chain-binding loyalty. The result is a life of abject servitude. I am talking about involuntary servitude or mental rape, which is real, cruel, and disabling. The church fathers call women honored daughters of God, which is a euphemism for conditioned ignorance, fear, and guilt.
At birth, a child represents the promise of a bright future. Under the cultural umbrella of Mormonism, she becomes a baby-making machine. Her mind and body exist to be impregnated by a male agenda. Assume the position. God’s work to be done.
The belief that women are inferior is conditioned into the psyches of the church daughters with the repetitive avalanche of a TV commercial. Denied the right to think their own thoughts and dream their own dreams, they learn to be loyal and obedient to a priesthood of men. They serve the dream of another. They are taught that they cannot go to heaven without a husband of the church. What effect does this have on the child mind? Is anyone listening?
As seen in the Mormon wedding ritual, these young women marry an authoritarian chain of command, pledging obedience to God (male deity), Church (patriarchal rule), and husband. The ceremony is administered by a man. Thus our daughters become part of a lifelong support group dedicated to male importance.
~~~
Grace Peterson, educator, caught the essence of what it means to have a human brain:
“I think the need to tell
is a part of who we are as humans,
and it starts when we are young.”
One of the most painful things you can do to a person is to divert their natural ability to dream personal dreams. The needs of the human heart are irrepressible. Women have something to say. Self-expression confined to bedroom and kitchen is not self-expression. It is slavery, subtly packaged in the bright ribbon of righteousness.
Conditioned to a life of servitude; how is that not violence? Any act of violence directed at a woman is ultimately aimed at the whole of womankind. Physical rape and programed ignorance are violent acts ultimately aimed at the whole of womankind.
A man rapes a girl. The physical act is conduit to his perception of women. Many men lead empty, unfulfilled lives. Rape is an act of rage kindled by an unfulfilled life. Uncontrolled male aggression seeks to own and control what it does not understand . . . a priesthood no less.
Women not only live longer, but in the biology of things, they are the primary or default sex. While subconsciously men sense their own inferior nature, they are physically stronger. This has created a legacy of might over right. Rape, domestic violence, involuntary servitude, and genital mutilation all are violence and violence in one part of the world is the same any where in the world. The damage, the lasting pain and hurt, is ultimately to the human mind. And not just the mind of women. Men suffer as the captor suffers in having to guard, feed, and care for his prisoner.
The question arises: How do we provoke young women to think for themselves? To liberate someone who doesn’t know she is not free seems cruel. It is a daunting task to navigate open waters when one has no idea what that means or how it is done.
~~~
The slave daughters of today are starving. Poverty of mind is but another form of rape; anemia of the soul. They are being raised with a mindset that dumbs down human cognition through the glorification of obedience, loyalty, and our-way-is-the-only-way.
Children should go to bed loved, with full tummies and a thousand questions. Instead, young Mormon women are being taught that some questions are devil inspired. They are taught that intellectual inquiry into doctrine and church history can only undermine spirituality and obedience. It is a shrewd conditioning. Under the clever scrutiny of church fathers, they learn it is “wrong-minded” to think otherwise and they learn it from the cradle.
Wrong-minded! Yes. That’s what I said. The word has been around so long in Utah they have dropped the hyphen.
This perfect conditioning occurs right under the nose of the law that forbids It. The Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America reads:
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude . . .
shall exist within the United States,
or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Is anyone paying attention? Nancy Pelosi our laws are being broken. Rachel Maddow, I can’t hear you.
On August 7, 2013 The Huffington Press quoted Kathleen Taylor, a neurologist at Oxford University.
” . . . during a talk at the Hay Literary Festival in Wales on Wednesday. She said that radicalizing ideologies may soon be viewed not as being of personal choice or free will but as a category of mental disorder. She said new developments in neuroscience could make it possible to consider extremists as people with mental illness rather than criminals.”
We need leaders who will challenge our youth to think independent of patriarchal authority. If men continue to be the primary governing power can we expect different results?
Men and women do not have the same brains. The nature of man demands the counterbalance of woman. Young girls can more readily identify with women who are fighting for her rights. Terry O’Neill of NOW and women in Congress are visible and easy to connect with, but these women leaders are not reaching out and demanding adherence to the Thirteenth Amendment.
IS THERE A SOLUTION?
At some point it is imperative that we stop fixing problems by dealing solely with the symptoms of the problem. The culture of religion holds enormous power because it is a culture of, for, and by men.
The legislative body of our Congress has 540 seats; 100 in the Senate, 440 in he House. In 1916 there were no women occupying any of those seats. In 1917 there was one woman in Congress. In 2013 there are 101.
Question: What would happen if our Congress were comprised of equal parts men and women? Would there be a shift in priority focus? If 270 women had seats in Congress do you think gun laws would have been neglected this long? Would rape, abortion, and equal pay issues be treated differently?
U. S. influence is global. Our values are exported with our trade and the billions of dollars we pour into other countries? We influence the world.
Add another one hundred and seventy women to Congress. How many dare predict the resultant change? Catastrophic? Thought sound becomes voice. Voice becomes vote. Vote becomes planetary change.
But worry not. It will never happen, not while men hold all the power. A congress of, for, and by men has designed a nation of, for, and by men. Keep in mind the political and financial clout of this 14,000,000 member church. We only need think back to the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment 1982.
In a speech to a convention of women in 2006, Madeleine Albright, former US Secretary of State, said, “There is a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women.”
Grandpa,
I fully agree with you …
And by the way, you nailed the problem and it started with how women were treated in the old testament It was a reflecition of how men treated women at that time but the scary part of it is that they may it into a godly thing to do it and allowed abused and injustice for many centuries and still do in many places.
However, women no longer want to be treated that way .. which is why no many women believe in the kind of religions that does not require the same respect and principles for both genders and support gender inequaltiy.
This is why also many women prefer to live alone and/or divorce .. they have had it with the imbalance, injustice and imbalance.
So in the long run, religions that do not foster equal representation, equal respect and obligations will persih … because women will no longer tolerate being abused and exploited and rightly so.
Brian Palmer,
Thank you for your comment. I agree with you 100%.
I agree that lower level ecclesiastical leaders can let personal bias overwhelm the proper process of the disciplinary council. From my experience of participating in such councils I have not personally experienced the severity of questioning as outlined in the document. I do respect the rights and status of women. I hold them as equals and not something to objectify (I am married and have three daughters). In fact my experience and what I have been taught a what I teach is that men have the greater responsibility in matters of sexually purity. That either sex has the ability to be fully cleansed of past mistakes and labels (judgments – slut, etc) are not consistent with the doctrines of Christ and that all men and women are equal under the gospel umbrella. For those who have been or feel they have been unrighteously judged ultimately we will all be judged (including ecclesiastical leaders) by the perfect Judge. We live in a time of continued revelation and will see changes that will help level the process. Further, personally in rape cases within the church councils a women leader (Relief Society President) should be trained and included to make sure the rights of that person who was raped is protected. I am sure it is tough enough just to come forward, much less to divulge the process to a man. That takes a lot of trust – having a women there to speak to and understand her perspective and to be able to explain it well would go a long way in such discussion.
The problem isn’t the structure perse. The problem is that not matter the institution we are just mortal beings. We tend to mess things up. So creating a new one or going to a different church will just lead to frustration because you will find the same thing there. Even if it is a woman leading it. It is society that needs to change 🙂 Just my two cents.
You people are blaming the church which does not teach any thing about double standards..Bishops and branch presidents do make wrong decisions as they are human beings but there should be any biased towards women nor men at any circumstances..If you think you have being unfairly treated you should seek help at the next level. talk to stake president and higher authority..many of you have walk out of the church that is your own right and decision but the does not practice or teach double standard .I do believe both parties involved in any such cases as in this article will be both dealt with accordingly to church principles.
How much higher can you get? When you confide in with Stake president and BYU counseling services and they counsel they give you is RM’s will be Rm’s and it is your fault for enticing them . You have no clue at all! Yes, we are all humans, but when you are put in a position to counsel and be in a neutral position without prejudice and yet you blame the female for all problems. This is a churchwide problem not just individual wards and stake centers. The church is archaic in their teachings and need to adjust. A woman is not to blame just because her skirt is shorter or she winks.
Sometimes the lines aren’t as clear as they could be, even for the victim. I know a woman who, as a student at BYU, didn’t have anywhere to stay for the week between Summer and Fall semesters. (The fact that apartment management in Provo can end contracts knowing there’s nowhere for students to live in the interim is a real problem, but that’s another matter.) A friend of hers who she had dated off and on and recently broken up with (supposedly for good) offered for her to stay at his apartment, since his roommates would be gone during the break and their rooms would be free. In retrospect she has admitted that it seems like an obvious mistake, but she thought at the time that it wouldn’t be a problem, especially since there were separate rooms. After only a day or two there, they ended up getting comfortable with each other again and at one point, he ended up giving her a back rub. My parents used to joke that back rubs in the front room turn into front rubs in the back room, and it turns out it’s really not a joke.
To “better facilitate the back-rub”, he started to take her shirt off. I don’t know if she verbally objected—knowing her she probably froze—but when he decided that her bra strap was in the way and took that off, too, she started to cry, clearly indicating that she wasn’t comfortable with what was happening, but also feeling guilty that she had allowed it to go this far. Feeling guilty actually had the opposite effect it should have: she gave in and went limp, saying “no” repeatedly but not physically resisting as he continued to undress her and began having sex with her.
She called me a few days later to tell me about the horrendous experience, telling me “I think he raped me” but then changing her mind because in her mind, since she hadn’t really resisted, it probably wasn’t really rape. I was the only person she’d talked to about it, and even that was only because she felt like she had to talk to somebody. The ambiguity in her mind was too much, but she knew one thing for sure: she felt guilty. She blamed herself for being there in the first place and again for letting him give her a back rub and for not stopping him at every point along the way. She felt guilty and she didn’t want to think of him as a monster—after all, she’d been taught to be responsible for her own actions—so instead she went back and had sex with him again, and again, so that she wouldn’t have to face the soul-wrenching turmoil of whether or not she was guilty. Now she knew for sure.
When she tried to end their relationship later, he became friends with her roommates and started hanging around their apartment. When she was leaving, he would find out where she would be and make sure to be there, too. And when she tried to make him leave her alone, he threatened to kill himself.
She later told me—and her current position is still—that it was never rape, that she had just been scared and hadn’t known what to do, but that she was equally responsible. She didn’t remember telling me that she had said “no”, and didn’t even remember telling me that she thought he had raped her. I told her she was going through something like Stockholm syndrome. She also told me a different version of the story, in which she had played a more active role, but all the while admitting that her memories of those days were clouded and that she avoided thinking about them.
Was she at fault? Perhaps not in the first incident, despite the things she “remembered” later. But could a case really be made for her innocence after she had sealed the deal to calm her turmoiled mind? Her destructive guilt complex eventually led her to marry him, even though she admits to me now that the day of the wedding she was terrified, and not for the usual reasons. She later found out that he had a history of disruptive pornography addiction and had been sexually abused as a child, which led her to ask “Was he really to blame?”
Even so, she knew almost immediately after marrying him that it was all wrong, and as she recognized that he was consistently verbally and emotionally abusive, she knew that she had to leave him, but stayed when he threatened again to kill himself. After a year and a half of an abusive and destructive relationship, one day she thought she might be pregnant. She was terrified of the prospect of bringing children into the life that she shared with this violent and abusive man. She prayed to God and asked if it would be wrong to leave him, and felt justified, for the sake of her future children. It was only then that she finally left.
These are the kinds of things that can happen when we allow victims of rape to believe that they are somehow at fault. Was she at fault? I still maintain her guiltlessness.
Anonymous,
I knew a Mormon boy who didn’t rape any anyone.
Seriously? you are going to post that comment? Of course you are going to know someone who didn’t rape someone, Mormon or not! Serious conversation going on here, post something meaningful and in depth.
Thank you for your post Mr. Barker .
By the way, women do not necessarily go after sex per say. Many just want to find someone to be their companion for life and a a faithful one at that. But in this world, for most women it is much better and safer to stay away from men altogether since so many cannot be trusted for anything and certainly not for truly loving their wife, treating her well and being faithful till the end.
I thank you however for saying that when two people have a consensual relationship, it is very unbecoming to call the woman a slut and let the man brag about it (which shows how little respect he has for her and it is just a sexual feat for him) and get away with it while a woman is frowned upon.
I personnally dont believe in love especially in the world we live in and women should be very wise to steer clear from most men, with a few rare cases. It is a ruthless and hopeless world in many ways, especially for women.
I've been waiting a long time to hear the Truth about this subject in the Mormon Church. I know what you've said is True.
anon,
That happened to a friend of mine. It’s absurd and appalling. Much much more needs to be done.
In my history, it has been that a man in power within the Mormon church, and other religious organizations, but not as prevalent, take advantage of women on an ongoing basis, even to the point of rape. They come away from the incident, many times without any retribution, while the woman, at least in one case, tried to take her own life…even though she was raped by an EX-Bishop. Something is wrong with this situation when those higher up act against a woman but not against the man.
Your beliefs in your response are according to church official protocol but they are incorrect in my experience. I know personally that the priesthood holding male does get off more easily by a sympathetic Bishop.
Another myth is that the interview with a Bishop is confidential and kept by him alone. He tells. HE TELLS! He also decides what he thinks about the interview and tells that as if a fact. Bishops, Stake Presidents, etc. are human beings. There is no real review board for the damage a Priesthood leader does to a member who trusted him. He does not lose his “license” and he doesn’t lose his position, as far as I’ve seen. But your life is destroyed. You might even have a difficult time getting jobs, dates, etc. He walks away and so does the confiding male member. You become the Scapegoat…a Pariah.
A Catholic Priest usually doesn’t expose a confidence in the confessional. They have a lot more at stake. Think about that.
Brian Palmer,
Sarah Finn,
Something else. My Stepfather was a longtime Bishop and he said it is the woman’s job to decide how far things go in the physical relationship, she holds the power because it’s “harder for men.” He told me it was more the woman’s fault and he fits the model in this article for the behavior of priesthood holding authorities who handle this kind of situation.
I suggested that God should have a different Bible for men if there are different levels of responsibility in this situation.
Thank you very much for you comment , something like taht hapend to me ,the bichop from the Mormon church in Mountain Home in 2012 dont want to help me because taht willbring bad name to chuch,
Thank you very much for you comment , something like taht hapend to me ,the bichop from the Mormon church in Mountain Home in 2012 dont want to help me because that whill bring bad name to chuch,
I have a loved one who was sexualy assualted. She reacted the same way the girl in this story did. However she with the help of church leaders, friends, and family she found healing. She is an active member of the church and is now married to a wonderful manin the temple. She was not attacked and blamed by church leaders. They loved her and wanted to help her find healing. Also Paul Barker, you are misinformed according to what the church teaches about the role of men and women and chastity. In one of the basic manuels of the church, The "Strength for Youth" pamphlet it says, "Remember that a young man and a young woman on a date are responsible to protect EACH OTHERS honor and virtue." You can go on LDS.org and find TONS of talks that speak specificly of men and how they should honor the virtue of women. Sister Daltons talk said that women "influence" men. Which is entirely true and does not exclude the other truth to it that men equally influence women. It is a two way street. And the church does teach it as that way. Some members of the church do not listen. But the doctrine of the church is pure and true. That men and women are equal and both are to respect one another.
Amber Clarke,
I was raped by my boyfriend and told my bishop. Because of the way I reacted to and coped with the rape, I ended up having sex with my perpetrator multiple times afterwards. I was then excommunicated and kicked out of BYU.
There is no doubt a major problem. I understand that there was a lot of miscommunication and that every bishop will handle the situation differently but we really need to take a close look at how we treat victims in the church and especially at church schools.