By Katey McGregor
By now we’ve all seen it, the video of the young men telling young women what they most want in a girlfriend/wife. If you haven’t, stop reading, and go watch it here before continuing.
Ok, all up to speed? Good. “Thoughts On Girls” is more than a travesty, and heartbreaking to say the least. As a twenty-three year old woman, I’m not so far removed from my pubescent years and unfortunately Young Women’s is still a vivid if not disturbing memory for me. Even though it was only a few years ago, thankfully I think I’ve changed quite a bit from the boy-obsessed nut job I was back then, and my independence has developed significantly. However, knowing who I was then versus who I am now, my first reaction upon viewing this video was, “Oh no. They’re showing this to teen girls???”
Now, I understand that every girl is different, but the years spent in teen-dom are critical to forming self-confidence, personality, independence, and views on the world and relationships that will continue to solidify for the rest of that person’s life. So showing a video to these girls that teaches them that not only should satisfying a boy’s wants and desires be their focus, but that the way they dress, behave, think, feel, and practice religion should be focused on whether or not some boy is going to approve of them.
Not a good plan.
As a young teen, my entire identity was centered on whether or not I had a boyfriend. I was so obsessed with this idea that I HAD to have one, and that if I didn’t have one then obviously there was a problem with me. Satisfaction in my own self-identity could only be achieved by attaining the attention and approval of a boy, and it didn’t even matter who he was; he just had to like me, and everything would be perfect. So when I turned 16 and there wasn’t a line of suitors out my door, I truly believed that I was worth nothing.
Maybe my experience was slightly more intense than most, but I started to think about how this video would have affected me if I had seen it back then. How sad to think that I would have abided by the Church’s dress standards not because Heavenly Father has required it of me, but because some pimply teenage boy told me to. How disturbing to think that I would have heard one of them tell me that in order to make him happy I would have to, “Cook really well… have lots of babies… support him in everything he does.” Going to college and becoming educated obviously would not have made a boy like me. Getting involved in extra-curriculars would not have made a boy love me. When such a huge part of a young girl’s identity is yet to be defined, approval from others is key in developing who she is and who she will be in the future. Do we honestly want our women to be molded according to the whims of a teenage boy?
Now, maybe I’m not cutting the boys enough slack. Obviously, they are very young and haven’t had a chance to develop opinions about what kind of girl they’d like to marry because they haven’t even had time to date very many. They only know what they’ve been told. And that’s the problem. This is what they have been told. The ideal woman but be modest- not because Heavenly Father has required it, but because it makes him “uncomfortable.” Another conversation could be started in relation to this; why does it make him uncomfortable? Maybe because women have be overly-sexualized by both the Church and society, and it seems that “sexually aroused” can now be defined as “uncomfortable”…but I digress.
These young men have been told what their ideal woman should be like. They haven’t formed their own opinions and they haven’t had their own experiences. It’s clear that they’ve probably dated few girls, if any. They want someone who will pop out babies and cook for them, someone who will laugh at all their jokes and support them in everything they do. Not once in the video were these young men asked about how they think they should treat women or even support them in their endeavors. Not once did one of those young men mention that their ideal woman would seek a career or even an education. The ideal woman would not place value on developing her talents or personality- she would just have a good sense of humor, which translates into thinking that everything he says is hilarious. Ultimately, this video provides us with a disturbing commentary on what is being taught to these boys- that women are there to serve them and make them feel special, with no emphasis on appreciating who she is on a personal level. The focus is on making sure that she is there for him in the ways that he wants, behaving in a way that he approved. And this is what’s being taught to our girls. Develop into who he wants you to be, not into who you want you to be.
This gap between what should be taught and what is actually taught is saddening and ultimately threatening to the health of these youths’ future relationships and relations towards each other. These young girls need to be taught that they do not exist to ensure the pleasure of the men around them, but to be bright, educated, successful, contributing members of society. These young men need to be taught that their women have as much potential as they do to change the world, that they have needs, dreams, and goals that should be met just as much as theirs. Change towards achieving equality begins here, with the youth. And if this is what we are teaching- if this is what we are encouraging- we cannot hope that our women OR our men will ever live in the world that they deserve.
This a million times over- “These young girls need to be taught that they do not exist to ensure the pleasure of the men around them, but to be bright, educated, successful, contributing members of society. These young men need to be taught that their women have as much potential as they do to change the world, that they have needs, dreams, and goals that should be met just as much as theirs. Change towards achieving equality begins here, with the youth. And if this is what we are teaching- if this is what we are encouraging- we cannot hope that our women OR our men will ever live in the world that they deserve.”
Have you ever read the Feminine Mystique? I just read the whole thing with my husband. He has almost been in tears that the same horrible stuff happens in the church and that it happened to us and to me. And I want more than anything for it not to happen to my kids.
Glad you’re here to tell us what SHOULD be taught. Personally I like my women to be immodest alcoholics.
Dave- because those are the only two options right 🙁 I think women should be what they want and ignore what you want. That is what we should teach,
Charming. You’re clearly making a solid argument for the boys in this video.
So you saw the focus as, “Cook really well… have lots of babies… support him in everything he does.” Is that from a personal experience the author in transposing on this video? As a father of three girls do you know how disturbing it is to see the pressure the majority of the world puts on them to conform to an immoral standard that many women buy into? Sure these are just opinions of young men with less experience, but how refreshing. I guess I should wait until my boys are sold on the objectifying of women according to this opinion. I saw in their thoughts repeatedly that they like girls who are not afraid to try things and be themselves, which would include education and other endeavors. I can’t believe how much personal baggage the author inserted into this piece and passed it off on others. The purpose of the video is limited in scope and dealt mainly with immodest dress. Obviously the reason to be modest is because your Heavenly Father would want you to, it is not saying to do that just because a young man says so. Does the author “as a a more mature person” always do the right thing for the right reason? Why lay that at their feet? One young man in the video even said “when they love God they will know who they are” not just based upon his opinion. Newsflash: men and women think differently about many things, and it is important to know how certain things effect one another. It is good for my daughters to know, that in addition to our Heavenly Father’s loving guidance and desires for their modesty, that even some lowly, pimply young men also think that is a good idea as opposed to the “floodtide of pornography” and “declining moral standard that is alarming and devastating to relationships, families, and the integrity of our nation as a whole” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Standing For Something, xix). With all the garbage that is being imposed upon young women, THIS is what you have issue with?
Brett- I think one of the most shocking days of my life (I can still picture where I was standing) was the day I realized that sexualization is not just about immodesty as promiscuity. Sexualization can be about modesty and sexual purity. Sexualization is when a person is not granted personhood based on his/her gender. NO one is arguing identicalness, but we sexualize our YW in this church. And it is wrong. I just wish that my girls (I have 4) could hear the message that they can just be them, and they can seek their own revelation and be who god needs them to be, not what some boy has been taught to tell them they should be so that he can “fulfill his dreams”
We have to realize that how we teach and speak to YW is a form of SEXUALIZATION. It is on the other end of the spectrum but it is indeed sexualization and it is wrong.
You mean that as a mother you don’t give your girls the message that they can be themselves, they can seek their own revelation and be who God wants them to be? I make sure my girls hear that message, I also teach youth sunday school (3 boys 6 girls) and make sure they hear that message. I understand how we need to be aware of how outside influences can adversely shape our identity. Our children are constantly bombarded with those images and influences. God surely wants us to understand our personhood and individual worth, and in addition God gives us gender identities that are part of our “pre-mortal, mortal and post-mortal” identities. Having a gender identity does not preclude one from having a personhood, and the generalized statement that we “sexualize our YW in the church” is broad and innaccurate. Is it sexualization if we talk about the blessings of gender identity, or only if it does not grant personhood? You are categorizing by exclusion. Our loving Heavenly Father has spoken often about our sexual identity as a wonderful part of our identities and as an integral part of his eternal plan. Does that mean he is denying our personhood? You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. To look at that video and claim that is purely to remove a young woman’s personhood and sexualize them to “fulfill his dreams”, you’ve got a clogged filter. Swinging between each end of the spectrum is what is dangerous instead of looking at the gospel as a whole. Sure we as mortals make mistakes in trying to get it right, but you’re working by an all or nothing premise. If you think that even after teaching all you can about being yourself and just concentrating on what God wants you to be, that a young woman will NOT be concerned about what other people think (guys or girls), then you are mistaken. Then to pin the harm on young men giving their opinions on the goodness of virtue and modesty? Find a balance and don’t buy everyone’s definition of sexualization.
Hi Brett
I understand what you’re saying and agree with most of it–as I think the author would as well. But I think you misunderstood what Jessica meant as sexualization.
We don’t sexualize girls by telling them that being a mother is awesome. We sexualize girls when we tell them that they need to cover up their bodies or men are forced against their will see them as sexual objects. Yes we should be modest, because our bodies are sacred. Yes modesty helps girls gain self-esteem by telling them they are worthwhile and able to get attention without “cheating” and flashing cleavage around. But we do it for God and ourselves. Period.
Yes nudity makes things hard on guys, but when it comes down to it men are responsible to keep a handle on it. Taken to the far extreme just to prove a point, even a naked woman should be safe from rape.
So when we teach modesty as a gift for boys we miss the point. In essence “you’re so sexy, those shorts better come to your knees or I’m gonna lust all over you” is really depressing and demeaning, and yes, objectifying. And it sells men short. Latter-day saints of all people should be telling boys they’re awesome and capable. Rather than reaffirming that they’re victims to their own sexuality.
I do understand what you are saying, and feel horrible if THAT is what is being taught, but I do not see that in this video or what this video is trying to do. Where do the young men say that YW should be modest because that is making it hard on them? Where are they saying that their modesty is a gift for the boys? In the video they are constantly connecting it to their relationship with God. I think it is unfair to take your valid point and to burden these young men with it when they said no such thing. I feel that you are objectifying the young men by placing them in that universal category. Don’t mix the messages, you don’t get extra brownies in making a specific point by generally demeaning another group.
What does ‘gender identity’ mean to you? We don’t teach young men that they must grow up and be dentist. But we tell young women the only really good way to be a righteous women is to be a stay at home mom. I completely relate to the author of this post. I spent my life trying to be the woman that a man would want. I’m almost 35, married with kids and just now asking myself ‘Who am I? What do I want? Who do I want to be?’ There were plenty lessons on the importance of getting an education “just in case” something happened to my husband and I needed to take care of my family. There was no talk of getting an education to discover what a difference I could make in the world, or to discover what I was great at and could be fulfilled doing. It’s not the 50’s anymore. It’s not black and white what we must be. And yet so many of our wonderful young women are still internalizing that, and not asking themselves important questions.
We systematically teach YW in this church that their worth is tied to their reproduction. That is sexualization, pure and simple.
The key point is here is all the things that you’ve pointed toward which the video isn’t doing: it isn’t asking the boys how they think men should treat women. It isn’t asking how they show respect for women. It isn’t asking questions tailored to women developing interests and careers the same way it asks multiple questions on modesty.
But imagine if they’d made this into a dialogue between boys and girls? We need less “don’t worry, girls, there are some good guys out there still,” and more focus on communication and dialogue.
I’m thinking back to when I was in Young Women’s – the guys and girls in my ward both kept complaining about each other as a group. Finally, our leaders held a mutual activity where we sat in a circle and answered questions honestly. By communicating, we were able to all see things more clearly, and by changing our behavior we became more cohesive as a group (we were the talk of the stake, actually, because of our unusual unity within our youth program).
That would make a good dialogue, and an even better video. It is just not what this video was trying to do. Please make that video.
Brett- I think these stats are important. We are doing something wrong and I don’t think we can blame the culture of the world. While yes there is smut there are also people telling my daughters that they can be anything, and they can change the world. If that message get into church it is always caveated.
The recent BYU Religious Studies Center publication, Shield of Faith reports that among LDS youth, young women have lower feelings of self-esteem than young men (170–71), are more sexually active than young men (8-9), are more likely to confuse sexuality with “affection, acceptance, and belonging” than young men (212), and are more likely to have lower church attendance than young men (33).
And if they make it to YSA, we then hemorrhage them. 60-80% of YSA females are inactive.
I can tell you it was a shock to go from BYU to the University of Cambridge and to be treated like a human being by men. THey look me in the eyes and treat me like a human being. Shocking.
Brett- The modesty rhetoric and how we talk about men in the church is demeaning to men. And it sexualizes them too. It makes them into creatures that cannot think past their own sexual desires.
Well done, Katey. This was a bit painful to watch. The film’s producer may have had good intentions, but what came of it is a clear and disturbing view of what has happened to our young men: a protracted perspective of who women are and what they are in relation to men.
Who made this video? I find myself wondering, “How would this play out if genders were reversed?” Can you imagine asking young women, “What makes a boy shine?” The original question itself suggests an object.
The kid in the blue and white striped shirt seemed to have some maturity the others didn’t. I can definitely cut them all slack for being teenagers and being raised in a culture that objectifies women. But, again, the whole thing is disturbing for those of us who hope and work for healthier concepts of gender roles, as well as balance and equality within the church.
Thanks for the post. No, I hadn’t seen this video.
I watched the video and read the blog and comments because a friend of mine posted this on Facebook. I believe this is another blatant example of the stark difference of how men and women think. As a man, it is obvious to me that the intent of the video was to give young women a contrasting view of modesty and attractiveness as opposed to the world’s standard. However, I can also understand the view and opinion of Katey and other women on the message they got from this video. As I learned in my communications class in college, it’s all about meaning and understanding and our understanding is based on our individual experience. I hope the meaning of my comments is understood in the spirit they are intended.
I don’t believe the meaning of this video was to objectify women or to put pressure on young women to conform to a standard set by pimply boys – I believe it was to show young women that standards set by our Heavenly Father are attractive to the right sort of young men.
In respect to modesty; The fact of the matter is, we are all (men and women) carnal in nature. We all have our own struggles and insecurities. Like it or not, young men (and men in general) are affected by women who dresses immodestly. Not that it’s an excuse, and not that it takes away choice, it just does. My wife and I teach our sons that women are to be respected as daughters of God no matter what they are wearing (or not wearing), how old/young they are, etc.
All of us, and I believe especially our young women AND young men struggle to find themselves, to know and understand who they are and what their potential is. They are bombarded constantly in all types of media with a skewed perspective of what they need to be, how they need to look, and how they should think to be acceptable to the world. Is the standards of the church, or should I say, the culture within the church, equally skewed in a different way? Maybe, or could it be that we are just trying too had to conform to the standards of society?
I think it is unfair to say that these young men are only saying what they have been told what their ideal woman should be like or that they haven’t formed their own opinions or had their own experiences. Even if they haven’t dated a lot of girls, they have had women in their lives (mothers, aunts, grandmothers, sisters, cousins, friends) where they have seen traits that they would find attractive in a future wife and companion. I also think it is unfair to say that these young men are only looking for a girl who will “pop out babies and cook for them, someone who will laugh at all their jokes and support them in everything they do” because they didn’t exactly say that (certainly not in that way). But who wouldn’t want someone who support them in all they do, think your jokes are funny, or be a good cook? Who doesn’t want someone who is giving, happy, and who loves God? Are these not desirable traits for a husband and father as-well?
In all aspects of life, church, relationships, and society, I think it is important that we focus on the positive and not the negative. If you are looking for the negative in anything, you will surely find it. I think it is important that we try not to take offense and seek to understand each other. Any healthy relationship requires us to give something of ourselves and think outside of our own needs and wants. As we always tell our kids, “In order to have good friends, you have to be a good friend”.
The truth is, we all feel pressure to be better than we are. We are all deficient in one way or another (in my case, deficient in many ways). The glory of the gospel is that we CAN be better, that we have an example, and that that example has also paid the price for our imperfections. All we can do is to do our best, look for the good, strive to be better ourselves, and rely on the Lord. Not because it is expected, not because of blind obedience, not because of a video that asks young men their opinions of what makes a girl “shine” or be attractive, but because we love God and we choose to. We need to worry less about what other people think and think more about how our Heavenly Father thinks of us.
Maybe this video does come across with the wrong focus, or maybe it’s our individual perceptions. Seeking for better understanding, I’m curious to know what questions would have been better to ask these young men and what answers young women would find more appropriate, motivational, and edifying. I have two teenage boys and I also work with the young men in my ward and it is important to me that they learn and understand the proper respect for women. While I have been married for nearly 20 years, I am certainly no expert. 🙂
I finally watched the video after hearing how “horrible” and “objectifying” it was. Yes, the video had its problems here and there, but for the most part I think it was nice to hear the young men valued women with a testimony who were kind, loved God, confident in who they were, modest, had their own personality, and lived gospel standards. Seems to me that this is something our Father in Heaven would value in his children as well. And oh, they actaully admitted that they would like a girl who loved and respected them as well. (To think someone would seek a spouse who loved them and treated them well–who doesn’t want that in a spouse?) As a young woman, I would have appreciated this video. I grew up in a town with very few LDS people, and the teen boys who were LDS may have gone to church, but were not the best behaved. I tried to live the standards and do what was right, but it was difficult to see that the girls who didn’t live the standards got all the male attention. I held to the belief that there really were guys out there who would value my testimony, value that I lived the standards, and that I kept myself clean. Sure, this video probably isn’t for every young woman, but 20 years ago, it would have helped me believe that someday I could meet an awesome man who would value me for choosing to follow God’s standards rather than the world’s standards. (By the way I did meet that man and am happiy married for nearly 10 years!)
From a friend: “As their leaders and confidants, we must stop hyper focusing on what our young women can and cannot wear on their bodies and focus instead on their relationship with Christ. When they gain confidence in their relationship with Heavenly Father and Christ, they won’t have any desire to seek validation with their bodies or their sexuality because they will have that security and peace in the gospel.”
If I have read your post correctly, this video bothers you, in part, because you see young men trying to limit young women. If you want to be beautiful, desirable, etc, laugh at my jokes, don’t make me uncomfortable, and I think you see a subtext of sustain me, bear my babies, don’t develop yourself professionally, don’t put my babies in daycare, etc. What also bothers you is that not one of these young men thought to articulate what you value: self-improvement because the individual and she alone values it, education, passion and maybe even advocacy for other women.
The truth of the matter is, as human beings, we shape each other. We are relational creatures by design. Relationships shape nearly everything we do. The truth is, these young men answered some softball questions designed to send a shaping message to young women (and to themselves). But the truth is also that you wrote this post to shape these young men, the producers of the video and us, your readers. It bothers you that the questions, answers, and cross-gender instruction format could be mistaken for a good idea. But to correct that error, you are trying to encourage your readers to see through this mistake and never repeat it. Why? Because in your worldview, each young woman should be shaped by her own desires, passions, and dreams. To thine own self be true. Shape your self. Be your own author, muse, guiding light. I’m not discounting the beauty of your message (or indulging some of what I think might be its flaws if carried out as an exclusive self-improvement regimen). But I am pointing out that you are engaging in the same relational instinct that these boys are. You and they and we will spend the rest of our lives “dressing this garden” and trying to make the world a better place. We probably shouldn’t be too upset when someone else is doing the same thing but working towards different ends. Our shaping instincts will always be in competition with one another.
As a side note, based on my experience, I’ll bet you that this video was not put together by the young men and certainly not be the young men leaders. This was put together by women–the young women’s leaders in the stake or ward.
Personally, I applaud it. The world does all it can to shape my daughters’ image of themselves and my sons’ images of what kind of women to desire. (A global sensational hit by One Direction tells my girls that low-self esteem is what makes them beautiful! Say what you want about the ugly message of that song, it resonates with girls and boys.) Good for these leaders and young men for fighting back and raising an alternate voice that values virtue in young women and in young men. Good for you for pointing out that some of the messages are wrong and need significant improvement.
I think that the gospel is about teaching agency. Both of your models ignore that. This issue is not an either or, it is not a zero sum game.
I’m not sure I follow. I get that we are to be free agents and not just listen to what the boys want, girls want, media wants, etc. That doesn’t mean that I don’t listen to prophetic expectations, educational expectations, relational expectations, cultural expectations and choose among them, though, right? In your model, should young women avoid any expectations of them, or should they choose among the best expectations of them, and feel free to reject all expectations, especially when they are not relevant to their own inner light? Similarly, are you advocating that we not set expectations of other people? Or are you suggesting that our expectations that we express of other people be more thoughtful, inspired and inspiring?
I also don’t think I understood how my post suggested a zero sum game. Would you mind expounding?
You suggested in your post that this video was OK because it was better than the world. I suggest that is a false dilemma. There are not just two options. You suggest the either or situation. That is it the “world” or this. I just don’t agree.
I think our expectations for the YW need to be more broad. They need to include letting YW develop themselves outside of pressure from boys. I think that people will always define in their own heads what others should do but teenage boys should never be given such a forum to YW.
We do not let YW ever really become who they want to become we qualify it. I was saddened in this video that it reflects that culture and the immaturity of the YM that they say their wife as adding to their development but did not seem to consider themselves adding to hers. That is a HUGE issue.
I appreciate you explaining more of what you meant. If I understand you correctly, you are ok with setting expectations, but not with setting limiting expectations for young women. Expectations should be enabling for the best light that shines within them and ennobling for those who choose to let that light shine. Letting or encouraging boys to participate in setting expectations for girls is dangerous in your view because their immaturity and lack of ability to understand what is best for young women runs the risk of setting limiting and harmful restrictions.
For my part, I can’t see a world where boys do not express hopes for girls and I can’t see a world where girls do not express hopes for boys. As long as there are heterosexual youth, there will be hopes and expectations expressed and unexpressed for the opposite gender. Some of those hopes and expectations will come from the carnal parts of their nature including the quest to control and dominate (from both sexes toward the other). As long as expectations are going to be set, I think we ought to help the youth to be mindful of the baser expectations and reject them and to help school the youth to set ennobling expectations of themselves and others. I appreciate what your thoughtful contributions have added to help school my own sense for what might become pernicious expectations. About a year ago, I asked my teenage son what traits he found attractive in girls. I was surprised and pleased by his answer: I like it when a girl is really smart and I like it when she has something that she really cares about and works hard to make it happen.
You would have cringed at my answer when I was his age. I know I still do when I think of what I was looking for.
“I know a lot of people say sense of humor, but I would have to go with breast size” – So I married an ax murderer
Sorry that just reminded me of that movie – carry on!
Hagoth- yes I just see a problem with institutionalizing and formalizing limiting ideas on YW from YM. But yes I think it is impossible to do away with it. But I think we limit our YW in the church far more than the YM. I think it is rare to hear a lesson about being your own person regardless or marriage or ability to give birth. We do not tell YW enough that they can change the world. We limit them, and I think that is sad. Because like you said you grow up and you like women who have ideas, but those YW often don’t let themselves become whole people.
Paul, sadly, you aren’t far off from what I would have said as a teen, and that is one of my favorite movies! Here’s hoping I have evolved since a teen.
Jessica, sadly, neither are you (far off from the truth, that is). I get frustrated when I sit in a priesthood leadership meeting and we discuss how to address the problem of the young men falling away, without a word about young women. I am extremely frustrated that we have a vibrant scouting program that encourages young men to achieve and excel, but the personal progress program doesn’t hold a candle to it. We can and have to do so much better, but I don’t see a groundswell yet that might cause it.
Hello!
While I agree mostly with what you are saying, I don’t necessarily think that the song by One Direction tells girls that they need to have low self-esteem to be beautiful. I think it’s more asking WHY they have low self-esteem when they ARE beautiful. And, of course, these young men are a bit younger, but what they say isn’t supposed to be harmful. It’s supposed to be helpful. Sure, girls who dress immodestly might not be trying to send out bad signals, but these young boys are saying to girls what helps them to respect girls. And how can we expect boys to respect girls when the girls aren’t helping the boys to? It’s all about teamwork, and working with each other. I’m an 18 year old girl, and even I understand this. My sole purpose is not to please a boy, but from this video I can glean the message that I will be helping the boys by dressing modestly. That was the message.
Hi, I’m Nate, the guy who created this video. Well, I shot and edited, but the concept came from a young women’s leader in my parent’s ward. I conducted the interviews using questions given to me by various stake leaders which I had tried to massage into less-awful questions. The original questions included a few little gems like, “what does it make you think when you see a girl in a bikini?” Obviously I threw that out. Now, after a year of film school, I can see where I could have altered the questions even more to get more personal answers from the guys.
After reading the first paragraph or so in Katey’s article I went back and re-watched the video myself to see if it was really so very terribly objectifying. I certainly feel uncomfortable with a few of the comments made by a couple of the guys and I can see why some view it as a problem. However, I don’t think that it’s fair to boil this eleven-minute video down to simply, “Cook really well… have lots of babies… support him in everything he does.” That’s not the idea of this video at all. The idea of the clip isn’t to tell girls what the guys want them to be.
The original intent was to highlight some of the great traits that the guys have noticed in the girls they already know. When asked “what makes a girl fun to be around, they mention traits like being outgoing, sincere, and “being able to take a joke and then dish it right back out.” Nothing earth-shattering or controversial, or even unique to the LDS church there.
Of course, when asked about modesty, some of the comments are pretty bold and (in some cases) rather insensitive. This is where the guys demonstrate their youth, I think. I would have liked to address the issue of modesty not so much in terms hemlines and necklines but more in terms of actions and attitudes. This section of the video includes possibly the worst question of all, “what signals does a girl send by dressing immodestly?” That’s an unfair question because it places 100% of the blame on girls for what guys think. That is definitely not the case. Some girls I think do dress with the intent to attract attention, but most probably don’t.
So, basically I’m trying to say that while I realize there are problems with this video, I think there is much more good than bad to it. Being an active and thinking viewer of videos requires us to stop being so extreme in our opinions. I am just as troubled by the comments saying, “this is perfect” as I am by the comments saying, “this is totally awful and inappropriate.” I think the video is a great starting point for discussion among LDS people, examining the problems and complexities of our culture along with promoting the truly good things about it.
Thanks Katey for expressing your opinion and starting a new conversation.
Nate- THanks for posting. I think that if the issues with the video had been discussed with the YW (and I don’t know maybe it was) than I would have less issue with it. I think that even the subtle messages are hurtful. Maybe not to every girl, but to even one that is too much.
Are you aware of this data?
The recent BYU Religious Studies Center publication, Shield of Faith reports that among LDS youth, young women have lower feelings of self-esteem than young men (170–71), are more sexually active than young men (8-9), are more likely to confuse sexuality with “affection, acceptance, and belonging” than young men (212), and are more likely to have lower church attendance than young men (33).
We are doing something wrong with our YW. When their sexual activity rates are almost double that of YM.
The number 1 way to keep girls from having sex before marriage is to give them ambition. How did the video do any of that? Why don’t we teach what really works?
One thing I wished they’d taught when I was a teen is that your whole worth isn’t tied up with whether or not you are married. It’s like my grandmother told me once, “Just because he’s a return missionary, doesn’t guarantee it’ll be forever.” She spoke from experience as the only LDS man she did marry, who was a return missionary, was abusive. She left him. It wasn’t until later that I realized that it’s okay to want more like a career. Also that there is nothing wrong to teach girls that it’s okay to get a career, go to college, and do things that make you feel good. I tell my nieces this.
Also I found it interesting how this video centers on what a girl needs to do to get a boy’s attention. A totally wrong message.
I think this has been really blown out of proportion. My nephew is in the video, and when I saw it, I thought it was a bit cheesy, but good-natured. Something that would be fun for the YW group in their ward/stake to watch. I remember making a list as a teen about what I wanted in a husband. It’s laughable now, of course, and we have to keep in mind these are teenagers. They’re going to have some unrealistic ideals. But there’s no crime in that. I can vouch that my nephew is a great kid, has dated a lot of great girls, and respects women. His mom is a college graduate and one of the most funny and talented women I know. (In fact all of my sisters are college graduates, one has an MBA, and we all work in the professional world… and both of his grandmothers were school teachers, as well as 2 of his great-grandmothers… so he comes from a long line of educated women. I will admit that I’m the worst cook out of all the women in our family, so I usually get assigned a salad for family dinners.)
Bleh, usually I don’t post because I don’t arguing, but there is something wrong with the way this post is attacking these young boys. I wish I could express that I understand where you are coming from. I tend to loose my cool when it comes to injustice and the way we treat our women not just within the Church, but everywhere. I once deleted a boy for posting a status, “Women in America have it good, they need to stop complaining” and subsequently deleted everyone who liked it or responded to it. Am I crazy? Probably. We definitely have problem over-sexualizing women, all women. And like has been previously posted, it’s not just necklines and hemlines that are the problem. However, I think this response to the video is a bit ridiculous. I think a lot of the opinion on this video is coming from personal experiences and that’s not fair. I understand some of comments in the video are wrong, bad, should not be said, and should be written on a piece of paper just so we can burn them BUT do I really think the YOUNG (see how I capitalized young, because keep in mind, just a few years ago these boys were learning how to use a toilet, tie shoes, and have barely learned the difference between boys and girls..) boys in this video had the intention of making girls feel inferior, like objects, like vessels to hold their unborn children, or making them feel like creatures put on this earth by a loving Heavenly Father for their amusement? Probably not. And might I also add ladies that I have a husband (hold the eye roll please, I’m not finished) and he cleans, cooks, takes care of my dog, hangs out with the neighbor kids when they come over to play with said dog, makes treats, and other various ‘womanly’ tasks and do you know what I do? I work, full-time even (gasp!) Yup graduated college and now I am the bread-winner. And when my husband was younger I imagine his answers in the video would have gone something like this “I want a girl who is modest, likes to have, smiles, is confident with who she is…” I get some (not all because I think you sound a little too angry to be constructive) of your points. I just think you may have placed your picket sign in the wrong front-yard.
Right with you on that. No need to picket here.
I’m a little confused by the article. It sounds like the author thinks that this video is to be used to instruct young girls how to behave. I didn’t get that – it just seems like it is an answer to the questiosn “What do some LDS boys think about girls?” If there isn’t already, I think an opposite video with LDS girls thoughts about boys would be pretty much the same and I would not feel like that would be telling boys how to act.
And the boys didn’t talk about how to treat girls because they weren’t asked that – at least not in what I can see in the video – but they seem to have a good idea of how great it is for a young woman to respect themselves. I don’t doubt these guys would say great things about treating a girl right if they were asked. I didn’t hear any mention of cooking or cleaning or having babies either, so why was that brought up? They just that they liked girls that were easy to have fun with. How is this is a problem? No teenage boy is thinking about someone that can have babies for him just like he isn’t thinking about making sure a girl will get an education and a fulfilling career. They’re just thinking about someone fun to spend time with before a mission. Same for girls. I don’t understand the outrage and I think the article is an overreaction to a benign, if unnecessary, video. I don’t really think the video serves much purpose except to make these boys look like nice guys. A video of the girls’ perspective on guys would be equally innocuous and flattering for girls showing their high respects for good guys.
The author’s concerns about these issues in the general culture in the church are valid – I never agree with the idea that girls need to be modest so young men aren’t tempted – but if you were to ask a good LDS young man how me feels about girls that dress immodestly the answers they gave are fine. They said basically: “It shows they don’t respect themselves and it makes me uncomfortable.” That’s true. They didn’t say “Any sinful thoughts or deeds that I did as a reaction to their immodesty puts girls at fault.” Maybe they aren’t going to give a doctrinally deep answer about the meaning of being a son or daughter of God and possessing and respecting a physical body – no surprise there, most teens aren’t going to share that, even if they do possess that understanding – but their answers were respectful.
I can’t believe how offended the author was by video. She was searching for something to be offended about. These are teenage boys! News Flash: They are going to say something stupid! (i.e. “laughs at all my jokes”) Even more surprising, they didn’t say too much that was stupid.
It seems pretty straightforward to me… it’s intended to teach girls what “good guys” look for in girls. And like it or not, whether these guys are saying things exactly right, they are GOOD GUYS.
If you (the author) were so boy crazy when you were a teen, wouldn’t you have wanted to hear that guys actually like independent minded, modestly dressed guys? It’s like a manual for how to impress those boys you were so boy crazy about. And what would have been the result of you being into the gospel and modestly dressed, and independently minded, and not afraid to try new things? You probably would have attracted a good guy. Maybe their dialog wasn’t perfect, but to me, seems the ends justify the means.
I didn’t go on my mission for the “right reasons”. I went on my mission because I thought I was supposed to. But over time, God molded my heart and I was their for the right reasons. I think sometimes just going to church, fasting, and doing other church practices–even if not for the right reason (i.e. impressing some boy) puts in a good place, and if we “stand in holy places”, no matter what the reason that got us there, we’re more likely to get our hearts touched and molded than if we aren’t.
I actually thought the video was really helpful. I’ve been struggling a lot with modesty – I’m 18 years old, fresh out of Young Women’s – and there aren’t a lot of boys in my small ward. I don’t agree that this video is sexually demeaning. I don’t feel as though those boys are saying that I need to dress modestly to get them to like me, I think they’re saying that they respect girls who respect themselves. And honestly, wouldn’t girls want boys to respect them? I know I do. It’s what I am looking for in a future husband. To hear tell that some people think, like the author, that they are objectifying women is wrong. They are NOT. They are merely stating what helps them to respect and love a girl as an equal, and NOT as an object – completely the opposite of what the author is saying! These boys are helping me to help myself! As I said, I’ve been having major troubles in being modest, especially since I work in a restaurant and its nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find skirts that are modest!! I don’t feel as though I am living up to my true potential when I dress immodestly. And that’s what these boys are looking for; a girl who knows and loves herself, and who knows and loves God, and what he would be proud of. I want to be a daughter that He would be proud of. And I want a husband who loves me for me, and NOT solely for my body. And you know what? Dressing modestly is a big factor of that! How can we girls expect a man to respect us when we are not respecting ourselves? We can’t! This whole thing of ‘do what you want and don’t listen to others’ opinions’ is not exactly the best thing to be thinking of. I, for one, do NOT feel objectified by this video. And I do not, for one second, believe that these boys are telling us what others have told them they should say. I believe that these boys are truly says what they believe. My sole purpose in life is not to find a husband – that’s only part of it. BUT, when I do get married, I want a husband who is grateful that I am who I am, and that I can support him as much as he supports me. It’s all about teamwork. And how are we girls contributing to the team effort if we are flaunting ourselves and expecting men to not look at us that way? Obviously they will. So, I know that I, for one, am going to dress modestly because I want a husband who will respect me and my beliefs, and not just love my body, but my being.
Can’t men and women be sexy, let people see a little bit of it and we all respect each other because sexiness is just a part of each of us?
I mean, as a 14 year old boy, it didn’t matter what a girl wore, I was wound tighter than a watch spring and it was just something I had to learn to deal with. In fact, it got to the point that modest dress turned me on (because that was what I was SUPPOSED to be ATTRACTED to). Either way, our sexuality is going to come out. Acknowledge it, enjoy it but manage it.
Attractive people might occasionally arouse us regardless of what they wear. Your body can be sexual and that’s cool. It’s not a good idea to engage each other sexually with no restraint (plenty of problems arise) but the mysticism we attach to our sexualities doesn’t make any of this stuff easier. Just acknowledge “what is” (sexiness exists and is cool) and the most healthy way to deal with it (not going overboard and giving ourselves healthy outlets).