Really? God sent an angel with a sword to Joseph Smith to tell him about polygamy(1)? Is that what we are going with? Are we all ok with that? If God is in the business of sending angels down, wouldn’t it be nice if he sent Joseph a message that was more useful than say the terrible practice of polygamy? I know, I know, “God works in mysterious ways”, but I can’t help myself of thinking of some useful things that could have been revealed in this moment.
If I was in the business of sending messages to humans via angels with a sword this would have been my wish list of realistic messages:
1. Wash your hands after using the bathroom.
2. Wash your hands before preparing food.
3. Anyone in the medical field should wash their hands and sterilize instruments before performing any actions.
4. Floss.
5. Boil water before drinking it.
6. Do not cough into your hand, rather cough in your elbow.
7. When preparing chicken, wash off area where chicken was prepared with hot water and soap.
8. People of any color besides white are not cursed – AT ALL, they are to be seen and treated as equals.
9. Slavery is evil.
10. Women should be seen and treated as equals. (this one might be a tough one for the time period, but maybe move out to the rocky mountains to practice this one).
11. Garments are to be worn only in the temple.
12. Polygamy should not be practiced, for it will cause your death, the death of your brother and the persecution of your followers.
13. One should never marry any person under the age of 18.
14. Take care of the poor before worrying about missionary work, who is or isn’t baptized, sins, who committed sins or who is “worthy”.
15. Again with the cursing, there is no such thing, there is no color curse at all.
16. Apostles shouldn’t be called for life to avoid major health issues.
17. You should really start thinking about a system of who the next prophet should be before you get killed.
18. That thing about Missouri being the new Zion… maybe we should pick a place that has better temperate weather, maybe Orange County?
19. Eat lots of vegetables.
20. Don’t buy Egyptian scrolls from traveling salesman.
21. Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes! (2)
If you have more messages to send via angel with flaming sword please put them in the comment section. Try to keep them time period related.
Footnotes:
1. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
2. Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_yJFLvmjJY
Pablo
Born and raised in Northern California, Pablo received his education at Ricks College and BYU with a BA in Spanish, minor in PE Coaching. Pablo served his LDS mission during the years 94-96 in Rosario, Argentina. He now runs a skate shop and batting cages in Orem, UT. He's married and has 4 boys.
All posts by Pablo
Horseless carriages are the future. Get working on that.
sisters, please wear pants to cross the plains. your posterity shall then wear them to church.
Your take on church history is bold and edgy. I’ll bet you don’t fit in at all with those cookie-cutter, God-fearing Mormons in Provo. This is a really valuable outsider perspective.
“Edgy?” Oh! You mean edgy like the media, the Internet and the 99 percent of the country that isn’t Mormon.
Don’t be “sheep”. Christ being referred to being THe Shepherd, doesn’t mean His Children should act like sheep. It’s not cool. Sheep are dumb. They will follow their leader over a cliff.
I see the biggest issue with the angel with flaming sword story is that if this is true then God brought about His purposes using coercion. Didn’t we have a pre-mortal WWE Smackdown about how that wasn’t cool?
Oh, and here’s my additions to the discussion:
Invest in Apple.
In the long run, it would be better to own up to all of the mistakes. I’m just sayin’.
I inspired the creators of the Chia Pet.
Keeping intimate secrets from your spouse is a sin. Having sex with someone who is currently married to someone else will get this flaming sword shoved up your arse
Well done!
Personally, i think that if there is a devil, the devil made him do it. Sorry, but I am no believer in a God who would not only condone secret sexual relations and marriages to anyone but your spouse, but a cog who would command it! Adultery, underage girls, polygamy, polyandry and lying about these things to your spouse as well as the public in my opinion are not the traits that a "Man of God" possesses or traits that a just and loving and moral god would condone. You don't fool me with your pathetic apologetics in these essays church!
Cog=God Freudian slip there!
This very point was also made about racism and the quest for Gold in Salem MA (D&C 111) in this blogpost:
http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/race-and-the-priorities-of-revelation/
One word: Google.
Just seems weird. If God was really going to interfere with agency like this, it seems there would be some incredibly universal benefit to it. Something such as “By the way, here is how to make sustainable, reusable clean energy so you guys don’t burn up all the earth’s natural resources and cause some bad things to happen for future generations.”
Or even if it were to be something more simple “Modesty isn’t about a persons clothes, but about the way you guys should treat each other. Be modest in the way you treat, and react to one another. I don’t care about bikinis and tank tops.”
“Having sex with someone who is currently married to someone else”
Want to cite a primary source that this ever happened? Or even secondary?
Maybe some of the husbands of the wives he married–surely they would have lots to say about this if it happened right?
Plenty of difficult actual facts without resorting to pulling them from your destination of said sword.
Why is that the issue? Here is Joseph Smith completetely and utterly disregarding that which he has said is the word of the Lord in D&C 132. Here it justisfies Hagar being given to Abraham in which the law was fulfilled and “many nations” sprang from Hagar. 132 goes further saying “Abraham had many concubines that bore him children” that counted towards his righteousness. 132: 41-42 goes on to dileneate between a woman that has entered into the annointing of the New and Everlasting covenant and one that has not. The former has not committed adultery, the latter to be destroyed.
Why is the adultrery thing being mentioned here?
Again in 132: 61 it talks about “If any man espouse a virgin and desires to espouse another” is justified, and again the word “adultery” is carefully used here and sexual intercourse with a second or more virgins justified under the auspice of the covenant. Also if you recall, the Lord quite succinctly spelling out the justifiction in the Book of Mormon, “If I the Lord desireth to raise a seed unto me, I will requre it” or something close to that. So here is my quesiton: When has latter-day restored polygamy not been about the procreative event of human intercourse? Why would, if you believe Joseph to be the prophet of the restoration, why would one believe that Joseph’s closest friends, brothers, confidants would practice a sexual polygamy counter opposite to the way their friend, brother and prophet Joseph practiced it?
And final question, why are the apologists and protagonists so concerned about the small potatoes of the sex act? Here the evidence is abundance, that Joseph practiced polygamy in a dishonest fashion, lying to Emma, to her face and behind her back. Lying to courts and governments, manipulating families in the name of promised exaltations and flaming swords to practice a supposedly eternal principle of the Lord, who promised to not give a commandment “save He shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing the Lord has commanded”. Doesn’t seem so in this case. I think there is abundance in thinking that Joseph’s polygamous relationships were sexual but to me that is a non issue (however I do think it was probably tough on the 14 year old psyche to have a 37 year old on top of her), the issue is the total lack of integrity, honesty, tranparency of trying to be obedient of God’s command, a man that proclaimed with boldness the reality of the restoration, that went to the borders of the Lamanites to preach, that got down in the mud with his beloved saints, yet when it came to polygamy, he was secretive and sneaky, dishonest and cowardly, which, at the end of the day, leaves me to believe it didn’t come from a God.
Oh, that’s right. The official statement is that the Prophet was sealed to married women and but in no way was he ever intimate with them. Because if he had been, the Church would be completely forthcoming and honest about those details?
jpv,
Exactly. No evidence that it ever happened = clear evidence that it never happened
Hey, wait a minute…
I’m torn about this as I am about the account of Abraham’s near-sacrifice of Isaac. On the one hand, I totally sympathize with the expressed sentiment: WT_? On the other hand, the whole, “Well, if *I* were God, I’d do a much better job than the God people claim running things seems to be doing” also rubs me the wrong way.
I don’t believe God would require (on pain of death) that Joseph lie to and cheat on his spouse or force himself upon young girls or unwilling adult women. But at the same time, I am loath to completely rule out the idea that God would require Joseph to institute the practice of polygamy (and that Joseph’s implementation of it sucked).
Are we stuck with the dilemma that either God doesn’t intervene or he must intervene in the ways we expect (e.g., providing medical guidance and modernizing social norms)? Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think that ancient hygiene or social norms were what God wanted (or wants); I just would like to think that we have more options than the proposed dilemma seems to allow for. Is there another way?
If telling God how to do things rubs you the wrong way, I’m not sure if this is the site for you. The bloggers here (and even those in the comments!) have an extensive history of telling God how He does… Well, pretty much everything wrong every day. Because they’re just so smart.
I haven’t seen the bloggers or commenters telling God he/she is doing things the wrong way. I’ve seen mentions that something the church, or a church leader may be doing or presenting as being off, misinterpreted, or wrong, but not God. Also, being condescending really doesn’t help anybody.
“Also, being condescending really doesn’t help anybody.”
Agreed. Now if you could spread that message to the bloggers here, that would be just fantastic.
Actually, I like a lot on the site, and have guest blogged here as well. 🙂
I’m pretty sure that angel with the flaming sword meant to reiterate the fact that mild barley drinks are good for our health. It also meant to tell the church that hot drinks did not mean hot coffee and hot tea….but alas, he was too focused on telling Joseph to have sex with teenagers
-Don’t leave too late in the year, people will die for no reason and their bodies will be eaten by wolves. Leave when the weather will be nice.
-Don’t massacre the Paiute Tribe.
-Don’t burn down and destroy a printing press for telling the truth about your lies. Repent for your lies.
JPV
Silvia P. Session (wife of Windsor Lyon) while on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she was the daughter of Joseph Smith not Windsor.
Should I go on? Besides Rude Dog is right, plenty of other facts to look at.
But… Wasn’t Orange County Mexico at that time?
Now, if Joseph was just this monster as an ever increasing portion of Church members are coming to think, why has Good chosen him? We are attacking the wrong person… Blame it on Father…
Mark, I agree with you.
I really like the open mindedness and the learning atmosphere on this blog 99% of the time, but I dislike when people just ridicule doctrine or leaders just to look smart. That’s not smart at all. I like the way you guys discuss OW, novel interpretations of old teachings, but leave to LDS lampoon the task of lampooning or faith.
Risking to sound superficial, are we trying to improve or religion, or just to criticize it?
Blame it on Father? Honestly, I don’t believe Heavenly Father sent the angel with the sword. I think its very possible that Joseph Smith, and all church leaders down to today, being human like the rest of us, make mistakes. Not just little mistakes,sometimes BIG ones, that hurt other people, and leave messes for others to clean up. That’s why we have Jesus Christ. Why do I still go to the LDS church? Because I believe in Jesus, who lets us all make mistakes, and who teaches us to forgive.Joseph Smith was just a prophet. Prophets are known to make mistakes.
Wise words Deacon Blues. So Joseph could still be a prophet…and Pres. Monson and all the others?
Humble and precise reference to Christ’s Atonement. Oh and by the way, I was being ironic about blaming Heavenly Father.
I’m seeking God directly and personally, not through prophets, ordinances, or organizations. He is a God of Love, which means he loves me. He is a God of Truth, which means I don’t need to fear truth. And I’m not ashamed to admit I don’t know much. God bless us, every one.
instead of a question with a question or a sort of comment like voting poll seeking different ideas here is a thought and addition on anything god does and doesn’t teach because there is as i from experience have found in but 30 years is nothing but truth. i once was someone lost in obscurity and translation as its called finding my way in a sense that didn’t add up i don’t care if it was relationships or the home i grew up in raised in a not so faith based home hell bent on non denomination or even truth as i didn’t grow up in such a place but there is also truth in that and what i oft found many claim to not believe in a god who would kill his own people or even a god who condones what in fact he doesn’t. it is human nature to take literally what is being said is the truth when in fact it is not. seeing isn’t believing and believing isn’t seeing i grew up for my part in a family divided over petty, reckless, folly, yet even foolish things that are a waste of a life on pointless things. instead of asking questions, opinions, even comments heres a questions as a challenge not to be answered but sought and lived. ask yourselves during this season and continue to even daily,” who are we and why are we here and why are we here and who are we?” truth is do you know that answer? do you really mean it if you wish to say yes? don’t so much as just think it, choose to know it and mean it with all your hearts as how does one know and claim to comprehend that which they simply do not comprehend and how does one define what one simply can not define by naked sight and here say full of bragging and boasting not in the cross but in all these petty things? i leave you my brothers and sisters with this challenge and also a word of inspiration,”Tough times it seems never so truly do last but those whom endure are toughened forevermore so solemnly ever do, as for that which we see on the outside ever so blindly should never matter, it is on the inside of that ye truly do seek within the hearts of those whom we love alone can truly speak can ever be the factor of why what is as those whom are pained do that which they do, forgiveth those whom know not what they are doing and love and be loved, live and let live and one shall surely survive, call upon the one who went for he shall come yet again from hence he sure went as was so for told so long ago!” All i can say is stop seeking the answers or opinions in a place that never matters and start seeking above in the one that surely does as it is he who wrote eternity and the author of life itself and is the king of all there is in heaven and over the earth, amen to the king of kings and the lord of all as christ is the king and we are his disciples after his own heart as he alone owns the way that in which is the path, the truth that is in him of the existence of the father of us all and in christ alone be that cornerstone, and the life that was meant to be that cannot be defined as it has no definition one must truly find that the answer is in simply but living only to accept all this as it is as jesus did this sinful world and not as we would have it! who are we to cast stones in that which we too hath sinned so greatly as we are neither judge, jury, nor even executioner, amen to the king of kings and the prince of peace for in him alone hath the final say, for vengeance upon my enemies is thine alone sayeth the lord! PS. it is not about wearing a word as christ taught no such thing it is about the father gods truth alone, not your truth, not my truth, not we, us, they, nor his or hers, not even mine. i speak the truth when i say im not a christian but just a man a broken man a sinful man a beggar at the door of the lords mercy and grace, but yet a man of god who loves his lord and his father in heaven that hallowed be his name, his kingdom, come, his will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, and his meaning gods will shall be done this too shall pass. besides what is the use its not about saying like hey look this is my denomination look at all these wonderful followers i have supported and taught to come to know you father look at what i have done for you is this not enough? does this not please you? for as he said alone,” do not come to me saying oh lord, oh lord, look at what i have done for you does this not please you? for this is a rag of filth before me as i will say unto you, for who are thou brother and or sister for i do not know you? i will spit you out my mouth.” i agree as its not about opinions not even differences its about facts and gods facts not another or even another’s truth as someone once told me,”if two are in agreement of the lord our god’s word and believe wholeheartedly that it is the truth of all that is and was spoken then henceforth they may walk side by side as equals in the eyes of the father so justly but if two or more are in disagreement then one must no longer partake and can no longer participate and must take his or her leave of the other and partake no longer.” just some honest facts and truths to think about and be challenged with.