A voice is heard in Gaza
mourning and great weeping
Fatima weeping for her children
refusing to be comforted
because they are no more.
Israel is committing a systematic incremental genocide. While this genocide is being brought to fruition Israel has severely limited and in many cases totally robbed Palestinians of their basic human rights including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Israel has consistently sought out the deaths of civilians including women, children, and the elderly despite having had every opportunity to avoid doing so.
Israel has the ability to restore peace by ending the occupation of Gaza and making reparations to the Palestinians. This of course should be followed up with an increase of love, patience, charity and forgiveness to ensure a lasting peace is established. The burden for peace should never be laid at the feet of the oppressed. Israel is responsible.
In 1942 in the midst of World War II the First Presidency said, “Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . ” (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.” (First Presidency Message, General Conference April 6, 1942) Any support of Israel’s constant aggression is contrary to the counsel of LDS leaders.
Elder Lance Wickman taught, “we should be repelled by the evils of war, not rejoice in them…Revulsion is how righteous and spiritually sensitive people react to the horrors of warfare.(Bruce Young. “Following Christ in Times of War.” Common Ground Different Opinions. Ed. Faulconer and White. Greg Kofford Books 2013) I feel revulsion at the one sided slaughter that is taking place right now. My heart is drawn out in compassion for those who suffer innocently. I stand with Palestine and call on Israel to cease all violence, stop the occupation, and with a penitent heart begin making reparations to Palestinians. I also call on US leaders to stop supporting Israel’s genocidal ambitions. As US citizens we are complicit in Israeli war crimes. We must take a stand.
Violence cannot be reconciled with the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. There are better ways. In Alma we read,
“And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.”
Jesus is the standard by which we measure ourselves and that which goes on around us, including war. Thankfully we have a record of His mortal ministry, because if He were born in Gaza today his ministry would likely have been limited to his childhood and his cross an Israeli missile. Ignominious death takes on new meaning when loose rubble marks your resting place.
It is time for peace. I stand with the Palestinians.
Amen, Viliami. Thanks for your post. “The burden for peace should never be laid at the feet of the oppressed.”
Since when are outrageous, ignorant, and extreme comments part of standing for peace?
I’m sure I don’t know what you’re talking about. You’ll have to be more specific.
Is Hamas the standard of peace that we should seek to follow? The same Hamas that killed their political opponents just a few years ago in a struggle for power in Gaza? The same Hamas that puts ammunition’s in schools and hospitals where there are women and children? The same group that has fired thousands and thousands of rockets at Israel for years, even as the Israelis have offered more land, aid, and relief in an effort to establish peace?
Israel gets along fine with Jordan. They seem to get along with Egypt. They don’t fight with Saudi Arabia. In fact, many who live within Israel are Muslims. And yet Hamas, whose charter calls for the killing of Jews and the end of Israel- is to blame for what is going on in Gaza.
My heart goes out to the Palestinian victims in this war and they are as much victims as German civilians were under Hitler. The Israelis gave them notice to leave by dropping almost a million leaflets before attacking. They also call and text them reminding them to leave before they attack. But the cowardly terrorist group Hamas, like Al Queda, Hezzbolah, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the rest of the terrorist groups- prefer to hide behind women and children. That is why this tragedy is occurring.
1. Israel is occupying stolen land and should give it back.
2. They have wronged Palestinians in thousands of ways and owe them an apology, money, and the courtesy of leaving. On their way out of Gaza they should stop and kneel in front of every man woman and child and beg their forgiveness.
3. A refusal to do so is a rejection of peace and an admission that they are encouraging further violence.
After the war in 1948 Jews pushed well beyond the UN-designated borders to claim land that was to have been part of Palestine, including the western half of Jerusalem. They also uprooted and expelled entire Palestinian communities, creating about 700,000 refugees, whose descendants now number 7 million and are still considered refugees. Israelis are and will always be morally deficient and forever in the wrong unless they make restitution. It is not too late.
So it’s no surprise to me that some of those 7 million Palestinians hate Israel and want to blow it to pieces. Palestinian violence is defensive in nature and similar to a slave or prisoner trying to break free. There is an incremental genocide taking place and people want to blame the abused for fighting to get free? Wrong.
Israel has the moral obligation to stop all the persecution, opporession, and theft of property and land. When Israel does this in addition to making reparations, peace will have a chance.
Before I step into a meeting, I’ll address the false things you said later, but this one caught my eye.
Palestinian violence is defensive in nature and similar to a slave or prisoner trying to break free.
That’s a lie. Go look into the Hamas vs Fatah conflict. Go invest how one pro Palestinian group, Hamas, brutally murdered it’s political opponents in an effort to gain power. It’s nothing new for these radical groups as The Muslim Brotherhood and Hezzbolah have been doing this same thing for decades now. Why is the son of the Hamas founder, who left the terrorist organization and became a Christian, now in favor of Israel defending herself?
And if they are refugees, why doesn’t Syria, or Jordan, or Lebanon, or Egypt take these Palestinian refugees?
Please do your homework next time.
You’re totally wrong! your heart goes to the Palestinians? give me a break. They’re suffering , they’re hungry, their land was taken, they’re treated worst than animals by the Israelites. As a Latina, I totally sympathize with them. Our land was taken and now, you’re making us leave, because we are “undocumented, Illegal ” look deep down in your heart and see how this people are suffering. With your sympathy, they’re not going to eat.
Americans think that just by calling something a “terrorist organization” justifies an and all forms of violence. It does not. Violence is never justified by the restored gospel of Jesus Christ except in very very very rare cases of self defense.
There are other more peaceful ways to resolve conflict.
Of course there are. I’m sure that Hamas and Palestine would be willing to sit down and figure out how they can all live together peacefully like we do here in our country, right? I’m sure that they could figure something out.
Not if Hamas calls for the killing of all Jews. What’s embarrassing is that other countries have figured out how to have Muslims/Christians/and Jews to live together peacefully. Except in Gaza. They all live peacefully in places like Tel Aviv or anywhere in Jerusalem, just as they do in Turkey or Britian or America. In Gaza, that can’t happen thanks to the Palestinians.
I’ll finish my thoughts later.
What about the Jews chanting “Kill all Arabs?”
Israel is a pretty racist place too, y’know.
That’s a pretty stupid comment when you stop and realize that there are Muslims who live peacefully in Israel. Lots of them in fact.
Remind me, how many Jews live peacefully among the terrorists in Gaza? However, many Palestinian women and children are innocent pawns used by Hamas.
R. Donald,
That is abhorrent, but Palestinians have been chanting similar things for decades.
Jason, I don’t know if you have been to Israel or anywhere in the Middle East. For my job I travel frequently to Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt. I have friends and colleagues in all those countries.
I can safely say that like any country Israel isn’t above any moral code. I think the issue here is to separate the country and government of Israel from the Jewish religion. I agree that Jewish people deserve a place to live as do the Palestinians. I don’t agree with the government of Israel’s policies in their handling of the Palestinians. Arab Israelis – both Muslim and Christian – do not have equal rights in Israel. Arab schools get less funding. Only an extremely few schools are mixed between the Jews and others. Leaving the country, the guards at the airport will pull over any car with an Arab in it and interrogate them (and those with them) My Jewish friend told me it was embarrassing to him.
To say that everyone gets along in the state of Israel is a rather naive comment. People live in their own neighborhoods and hang out with their own kind. The different sects of Jews don’t even get along with each other. One sect of Hasidic Jews is even against Zionism and the state of Israel.
I think we have to be careful to over generalize. There are many people from many religions and ethic backgrounds on all sides of this issue.
Regarding the Palestinians leaving Gaza – where are they supposed to go? There are 1.7 million people crowded in an area that is about 5 miles wide and 18 miles long. They have no passports and no way out because the Israeli government has everything blockaded (which is against the UN declarations) They went into UN approved schools and the Israeli military blew that up.
Many of the tunnels were used to get supplies of food and medicine into Gaza because the Israelis only let in a fraction of what it needed to sustain lives. The Israelis even ban chocolate from Gaza. How insane is that?
To be against the policies of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitic (after all Palestinians are Semitic too) I stand with all other people as a Mormon and a human being and say the killing of innocent civilians is unjustified. The Israeli government needs to sit at the table and work with the Palestinians. What they are doing is just making more Palestinians supporters of Hamas.
R. Donald, take a look at this. http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.609649
“They have wronged Palestinians in thousands of ways and owe them an apology, money, and the courtesy of leaving. On their way out of Gaza they should stop and kneel in front of every man woman and child and beg their forgiveness.”
More standing for peace, I see. Should I up and go, begging forgiveness from the people who sent suicide bombers to blow up a bus, something that I saw with my own eyes? Should my neighbour, who was wounded in that attack, do the same? Should the mothers of the three teens do the same? Shall the children of the Negev do likewise, and beg forgiveness from those who barraged their kindergartens with rockets for years?
No, you want to portray one side as unmitigated evil, and the other as innocent victims. Palestinians have wronged Israelis, too. I don’t see you calling for them to do up and beg forgiveness from us. Your brand of intolerance is not the solution for peace. It never will be.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Honestly, V’s article resides comfortably between willful ignorance and propaganda. He’s making the Israelis sound like a nation of Hitlers while comparing the Palestinians to poor, enslaved little Care Bears. Only someone who has avoided learning modern history completely would be able to write something this misguided.
well said Mark.
Mark,
May I suggest “Abraham Divided” by LDS Middle East professor Daniel Peterson. He gives a very good synopsis of the Israeli-Palestinian issue. I am always reminded that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Violence in any form is bad, but no one who was witnessing a rape would ever say, “If she would just stop kicking and screaming he wouldn’t have to rape her.”
Palestinian violence is less than ideal but when viewed in a broad historical context it becomes clear that Palestinians today are lashing out because they are being violently raped by the state of Israel.
To say that the Palestinians have been raped is offensive to those who have been truly raped.
Palestinian violence is less than ideal.
Are you kidding me? Less than ideal? Hamas has killed it’s own people?!?!?
Tell me this-
Do you believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization?
Do you believe the Muslim Brotherhood is also a terrorist organization?
Do you think it’s wrong to hide ammunition’s inside of and next to schools and homes where women and children are found?
If you do than you can understand why Israel is doing what it does.
If you don’t than you are terribly naive.
Israel seeks out women and children and murders them on purpose and with full intent.
In one case, the UN revealed it warned the Israeli army 33 times that the school attacked in Rafah was sheltering civilians. Israel attacked anyway.
“IDF abuses such as looting, beatings, vandalism of property and the use of the localpopulation as human shields. But by far the strongest reverbration in Israel was that created by the Israeli
organization “Breaking the Silence”, which collected testimony from 26 unnamed IDF soldiers. All of the soldiers had been involved in Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip, and testified to instances where Gazans were used as human shields, incendiary phosphorous shells were fired over
civilian population areas, and other examples of excessive firepower that caused unnecessary fatalities and destruction of property.”
You keep wanting to justify Israeli violence. Violence cannot be justified by the restored gospel.
There are nonviolent methods that can be employed to establish peace. At least that’s what Mormon leaders and scriptures teach.
Are these not to be taken serious?
Than tell me V, if Israel indiscriminately kills Palestinian women and children, why did they drop a half million leaflets telling the Palestinian women and children- telling them to leave before the bombs came?
Why do they also send text messages and phone calls to them warning of the pending attack and to get out of the area?
Why did Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the Palestinians, bring his wife to Israel so she could have surgery? Why would Israeli’s perform surgery on her?
Why did UNRWA, the school you cited, have rockets? In fact, they had been warned by the UN three times not to have rockets there and still they did when it was bombed. Time and time and time and time and time again, Hamas has hid rockets and weapons in playgrounds, schools, hospitals, and neighborhoods- and then they wonder why those areas are being targeted?
Hamas is a bunch of lowlife scum and you don’t even have the guts to call them a terrorist organization. You make excuses for Palestinian on Palestinian murder calling it “not ideal”. They blow up buses, malls, synagogues, and on and on and now they wonder why they live in a hell hole called Gaza.
I bet if Mormon extremists blew up Catholic churches, buses, discos, hotels, and other places in public- I bet we would be isolated as well in some remote location behind a fence.
Until you can call Hamas a terrorist organization, along with the Muslim Brotherhood, and until you can condemn putting weapons in schools and hospitals- YOU HAVE ZERO CREDIBILITY ON THE SUBJECT.
You said- There are nonviolent methods that can be employed to establish peace. At least that’s what Mormon leaders and scriptures teach.
Please tell me what Hamas or the Palestinians have done to try and create peace? Why does their charter call for the death of all Jews? Why do they continue to reject cease fire after cease fire?
It’s truly sad that someone who lives under the flag of democracy and freedom CANNOT condemn terrorism perpetrated by Muslims, on Jews, and often on other Muslims. It’s shameful so many Muslim’s stick their head in the sand and refuse to condemn terror groups like Hamas, Hezzbollah, and others.
Mark, your comment reeks of white American privilege. The issue is not whether I’m familiar with historical fact, it’s whether or not your capable of seeing through the thick wall of privilege that surrounds you.
If you are a poor ethnic minority in an apartheid state that is the victim of incremental genocide forgive my misguided assumption.
Wow, you resorted to racism rather quickly, don’t you think? I’m not sure what being “white and privileged” has to do with this subject at all, but it appears to be VERY important to you. Why is that? I wonder; is your inherent racism the subject of many of your blog posts or just this one response to me?
Well, it’s offensive, but so be it. No one brought it up, but you just couldn’t help yourself. If any good can come from this rather out-of-left-field racist accusation, it’s that people will see through your “call for peace” as the lip service that it is and recognize the deep prejudice you hold, just under the surface.
Jason, but for the violent actions of Israel, Palestinian violence against their oppressors wouldn’t exist.
That’s why my emphasis is generally on Israel’s moral obligation to right its wrongs.
The gospel requires members to support moral solutions as given in the scriptures and reject those contrary.
You said- Jason, but for the violent actions of Israel, Palestinian violence against their oppressors wouldn’t exist.
Oh, I’m sure that if there weren’t Jews anymore, Muslims would be peaceful and the middle east would be like Disneyland.
Are you serious? Muslim have been killing Muslims for thousands of years. Palestinians kill Palestinians and are led today by a terrorist organization who killed their political rivals- Fatah. I’m quite certain that Palestinians would be killing other Palestinians with or without Jews in that part of the world.
You never did address why Mahmoud Abbas would have his wife go to Israel to have surgery when you claim that they are “rapists and murderers”. Tell me- did they rape or kill her while they operated on her.
You ought to watch more than Al Jazeera and you would understand a little more.
I’d love to know what moral proposals the peace seeking Palestinians and their leaders, Hamas, have proposed to seek an end to the fighting. Please educate me.
Mark, you can’t see how white privilege would prevent you from seeing this issue clearly?
So, are you suggesting that your own racism makes you see this issue MORE clearly? How would that even be possible? Is it only white Americans you’re intolerant of, or Jews too? That would certainly make your post make more sense…
This much appears self-evident . . .
Mark, do you also consider male privilege a sexist accusation?
Whoa, slow down there cowboy! One of your prejudices at a time, please. Let’s get back to the issue at hand; white people. Er, I mean, Palestine and Israel.
“it’s time for peace… Via suicide bombings and rockets. I stand with Palestine, because KILL WHITEY.”.
That about right?
Corbin, do have something substantive to add or are you just going to stop by and make condescending comments?
I haven’t misrepresented history or church doctrine or theology. Make a contribution or keep your ad hom attacks to yourself.
V- why don’t you answer any of my dozen questions.
You never answered the question of Abba’s wife after insisting the Jews were rapists and murderers.
You haven’t once uttered the name Hamas, you know, the group that leads Palestine right now. The one that killed their political opponents. The one that is so cowardly that they hide behind their women and children and hope that naive anti Semites like you would condemn Jews.
You haven’t addressed any peaceful solutions that the Palestinians have sought.
You never addressed my comments about the weapons at the UN school because it goes against your anti Semitic agenda.
Please take a minute to address my several questions. Go ahead and try defending the indefensible.
Jason, the reason I haven’t addressed those things is that Palestinian violence exists only because of Israeli occupation, genocide, imprisonment, apartheid persecution and oppression. Israel’s bloodlust and greed creates the same in Palestinians.
Violence is bad. Violence is contrary to the gospel.
Israel has the moral obligation as the agressor to seek a peacful solution. They could lay down their lives like the Anti-Nephi-Lehi’s or they could simply stop all of those things I listed and extend the hand of fellowship.
War and other violent actions bring short-term results; but the long-term effects, including bitterness and a desire for revenge, often take generations to overcome.
From President Kimball, “Wouldn’t those seeking change be far better off to a lign themselves with the constructive forces and attempt a slower, more peaceful way to reach the same ends?
"Israel is committing a systematic incremental genocide." It is clear that you don't know what that term means. Israel wiped out a bunch of tunnels and blew up a bunch of buildings from which rockets were launched or arms were stored in (plus a few others by mistake) and then withdrew to the previous borders and ended large scale operations. Get a grip on yourself old friend. This is ugly war, but it isn't genocide.
Adam, never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be happy to see you in an Israel discussion. LOL.
Incremental genocide. I know what it means.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-incremental-genocide-gaza-ghetto/13562
Adam, what about my last comment to Jason saying, ” the reason I haven’t addressed those things…”
Thoughts on that?
To the site administrators, both the fury and the content of this post feels like site drift.
Sam, could you give an example of the fury in the post? Also, what is site drift?
The answers to both should be obvious from the OP and the ensuing fight, and you seem too interested in a scrap to engage.
Sam, why would you come onto a public forum and engage others in conversation and then when asked for clarification basically tell me I’m too dumb to understand and that I’m distracted by a scrap?
Why not just answer in a way that’s clear and straightforward. Or will that spoil your Internet wizard persona where you flit to and fro between threads tantalizing lurkers with your esoteric vague commentary and pronouncements?
Lame.
” you seem too interested in a scrap to engage.”
What tha?!?! My engagement is a provable fact of the Universe! Also, I don’t know what a scrap is when used in this context. Any help or would that violate your mystical vague Internet wizard code of abstractness?
Wow. It is sad how people mindlessly regurgitate Israeli state propaganda and try to pass it off as a legitimate position. Israel is mass slaughtering Palestinian children, women, and men, even bombing schools and hospitals, and these tools of Israeli propaganda want to use this as an opportunity to further denigrate Palestinians and praise Israel. It’s sick. And by the way, saying that Palestinians use their children as “human shields” is not only not backed up by evidence, but it is a racist stereotype. There is evidence, however, that Israelis use Palestinian children as human shields and the UN has condemned Israel at least twice for doing so. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.530993
Thanks for the propaganda from Al Jazeera. It’s Hamas that are the murderers, as evidenced by them killing Fatah, their Palistinian opposition party. They are murderers and terrorists. They are isolated in Gaza now because they blow up buses and discos and on. They put weapons caches in hospitals and schools and wonder why these places are bombed.
What I’m most disturbed by is someone like V and Tariq, who live in a free country where we all can worship as we choose, would choose to support a people who oppress women, deny basic rights, and cheered when we were hit on 9/11. You support people like Hamas, Hezzbolah, and the Muslim Brotherhood. They are murderers of there own people and still, you sit in a free country, a democracy, and lend support of terrorists who hide behind women and children like the cowards they are.
If they came out of their homes and wore a uniform like soldiers do and fought on man to man, than no women or children would be hurt. But they are terrorist cowards.
Ha! Ask Palestinian women who oppresses them more, Palestinian men or the state of Israel. I’m sure that all of those Palestinian mothers whose children were killed by Israel will be happy to know that the killers did it to liberate them. You are really grasping at straws if your argument is that Israel has to slaughter Palestinians and take over Palestinian land to liberate Palestinian women. White colonialists have been making this false feminist argument since the 19th century. It was bogus then and it is bogus now. But if it makes you feel justified, then go on and continue mindlessly regurgitating the false claim that Palestinian men are terrorists who hide behind women and children. And be sure not to offer any real evidence to back up your racist stereotype.
The entire world knows that Israel is the aggressor and Palestinians are the victims of apartheid, settler colonialism, and incremental genocide. All of the best scholars the world over know this. Several academic associations support the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement. Albert Einstein warned about the fascism inherent in Zionism as early as 1948. Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Judith Butler, Cornel West, Arundhati Roy, the list goes on and on of great minds, all who support or supported a free Palestine and opposed Zionist colonialism. What great minds support Zionism? None. Who do the Zionists have on their roster? Only scumbags, losers, dorks, and wicked U.S. politicians who have no moral center.
Here is Buber’s trenchant criticism of Gandhi’s stance. Do take a read. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/BuberGandhi.html
Oh, and your characterization of the “Einstein Letter” is entirely incorrect. the letter condemned a certain Zionist group, Beign’s, of being modeled on Fascism. The letter is actually approving of the then-mainstream segment of Zionism.
A certain Zionist group that stands for everything that Israel today stands for. That group which was considered extremist at the time Einstein was writing would be mainstream by the standards of today’s Zionist movement.
All of you who support Israeli apartheid will go down in history like the people who supported apartheid in South Africa and segregation in the U.S. You are on the wrong side of history.
Tariq, instead of buzzwords, please provide a short definition of Israeli apartheid, becuase the term does not at all match my own experience.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html
“According to Article II of that convention, the term applies to acts “committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them.” Denying those others the right to life and liberty, subjecting them to arbitrary arrest, expropriating their property, depriving them of the right to leave and return to their country or the right to freedom of movement and of residence, creating separate reserves and ghettos for the members of different racial groups, preventing mixed marriages — these are all examples of the crime of apartheid specifically mentioned in the convention.”
In that case Israel is certainly no Apartheid state.
Ok, well, the entire international community disagrees with your spin on what apartheid is, including several notable South African anti-apartheid activists.
Thanks for getting us back on track Tariq. I let my frustrations get the best of me. Great comments.
Jason, the reason I haven’t addressed those things is that Palestinian violence exists only because of Israeli occupation, genocide, imprisonment, apartheid persecution and oppression. Israel’s bloodlust and greed creates the same in Palestinians.
Violence is bad. Violence is contrary to the gospel.
Israel has the moral obligation as the agressor to seek a peacful solution. They could lay down their lives like the Anti-Nephi-Lehi’s or they could simply stop all of those things I listed and extend the hand of fellowship.
War and other violent actions bring short-term results; but the long-term effects, including bitterness and a desire for revenge, often take generations to overcome.
From President Kimball, “Wouldn’t those seeking change be far better off to a lign themselves with the constructive forces and attempt a slower, more peaceful way to reach the same ends?
Thank you Viliami and Tariq. I appreciate the things you have said. I have known several Palestinians while living in Europe, and I believe those who are quick to justify Israeli agression while condemning all things Palestinian are trying to simplify and whitewash a very long story.
I would like to know from the Palestinian sympathizes the answer to this one question. Just one. And I suspect you will evade and dodge and refuse to answer it but I’ll ask it anyway.
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
Is the IDF a terrorist organization? I suspect you will evade and dodge and refuse to answer it but I’ll ask it anyway. Better yet, give me a definition of “terrorism” that doesn’t work against Israel.
Jason, define “terrorist organization”
Let me ask you a question. Israel could stop the occupation, genocide, imprisonment, apartheid persecution and oppression and bring about peace.
Why not? Why keep using violence when peace can be achieved through positive actions.
Also, as a Mormon (my assumption) why do you choose to support violence as a way to solve conflict when Mormon theology encourages us towards nonviolent conflict resolution?
Viliami, you yourself are “support[ing] violence as a way to solve conflict when Mormon theology encourages us towards nonviolent conflict resolution.”
Do I really need to define terrorist organization?
And while I wholly disagree with your assessment of Israel, tell me something. Do American Indians blow up buses and hotels and discos because you and I live on land that was once theirs? Do blacks in South Africa blow up buses and subways while they lived under white rule?
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
Is it right for them to put ammunitions in schools, hospitals, and neighborhoods as they do?
Are you capable of answering one question? Just one? ONE LOUSY QUESTION?
Hamas is not a synonym for Palestinians. Israel is not just targeting Hamas. It is targeting the entire population. Schools, hospitals, civilian homes, children playing on the beach, even rescue workers. And for those Palestinians who do support Hamas, that is only because they are backed into a corner with no other options. If someone treated my children the way Israel treats Palestinian children, I would attack that person with every means I have available to me, rockets, tunnels, rocks, whatever. That’s not terrorism, it’s resistance. Israel has forced Palestinians into an extreme situation, and when people are forced into extreme situations, they take extreme measures. But what about the completely unwarranted extremism of Israeli terrorism? The Israeli state kills significantly more innocent people than Hamas does. The violence is not comparable at all, it is completely asymmetrical. Where is the outrage over that? Oh, there is none, because Israeli terrorism targets dark savages who don’t deserve human rights, while Hamas targets people that respectable white colonialist Americans can relate to.
I’m still waiting for Palestinian terrorist sympathizes to justify why Hamas hides and fires rockets from heavily populated neighborhoods including schools and hospitals?
I’m not holding my breath since you haven’t been able to utter the word Hamas until 45 posts were posted. And even still, you can’t bring yourself to call them a terrorist organization.
Crickets… Crickets….
Show me the evidence that Hamas was firing rockets from those UN schools that Israel just killed all those kids in. Show me the evidence that Hamas was firing rockets from the beach where Israel killed those young boys. Show me the evidence that Israel was firing rockets from the vehicles of search and rescue workers. Israeli state talking points are not evidence. And why is it terrorism when Hamas kills Israeli soldiers, but it’s not terrorism when Israel kills Palestinian civilians? Why is it terrorism when Hamas kills 50 Israelis but it’s not terrorism when Israel kills 2000 Palestinians?
Crickets… Crickets…
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2014/sgsm16045.doc.htm
He won’t define it because whatever definition he give it will be applicable to Israel.
Exactly. It must be difficult for Israeli apologists to try to concoct a definition of terrorism that applies to Hamas but doesn’t apply even more to Israel.
Here, let me do it for them. Here is the definition they have in mind. Terrorism: Acts of resistance carried out by oppressed populations against genocidal, occupying forces of settler-colonialist apartheid states. Yes, under that definition, Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis are victims.
Hamas = Al Qaeda = Muslim Brotherhood = Islamic Jihad = Hezzbollah = ISAS = IslamoNazi’s.
They’re all the same. Murderers to those who oppose them and stand in their way.
“They’re all the same.” Yeah, that’s some really intelligent analysis.
Hamas = Al Qaeda = Muslim Brotherhood = Islamic Jihad = Hezzbollah = ISAS = IslamoNazi’s.
They’re all the same. Murderers to those who oppose them and stand in their way.
Indeed they are all the same. They are terrorist organizations committed to killing those who don’t agree with them. They might have different philosophical differences, but they each want to kill Christians, Jews, and even moderate Muslims that disagree with them.
The saddest part of it all is that even you can’t bring yourself to condemn them. Perhaps you see them as your people. They despise freedom and democracy. They rule with an iron fist. That you would live under the flag of freedom and be unable to condemn their terrorist actions is really quite sad and offensive.
You should be embarrassed to call yourself American if you see these groups as anything less than murderous cowards.
A powerful piece from our Unitarian Universalist brothers and sisters that goes nicely with your piece, Viliami:
“Both sides” don’t have the right to self-defense.
“Both sides” do not receive billions in military aid.
“Both sides” do not enact apartheid laws to ensure ethnic hegemony.
“Both sides” do not exist at the systemically violent prerogative of the other.
“Both sides” do not ethnically cleanse.
“Both sides” haven’t lost almost two thousand lives in less than a month.
“Both sides” do not have the deliberate and mass targeting of civilians engrained into their military doctrine.
“Both sides” are not states.
“Both sides” do not have their their homes, their hospitals, their schools, their places of worship and their shelters destroyed.
“Both sides” are not under land and naval siege.
“Both sides” haven’t had their electricity and access to water severed.
“Both sides” do not have their daily calorie intake counted.
“Both sides” aren’t occupied.
“Both sides” aren’t compassionate headlines.
And the lives on “both sides” are not equal in the weight and worth.
So don’t talk about the responsibility of “both sides” to make peace; don’t talk about how the blame of the suffering is on “both sides.”
The slave and the master weren’t “both sides”; the tyrant and his subjects were never “both sides”. The native and the settler were never “both sides” — so why do we treat the Palestinians and Israelis as “both sides”?
http://thecooltable.org/2014/08/03/there-are-no-both-sides-the-israelis-and-palestinians-are-not-equal/
You guys should go take your pro Palestinian, terrorist sympathizer nonsense elsewhere.
You suggest that the Palestinian people would be peaceful if only they eradicated the Jews as Hamas seeks to do. The truth is that Muslims kill Muslims all the time and they always will. Just look at Syria. Look at Iraq and Iran. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Pakistan.
These radical jihad loving terrorists seek only to kill those who disagree with them, whether Jew or Chrustian or Muslim. Muslims are committing genicides against their own people. The Jews can’t live among them as Buddhists and Catholics and Christians do because they will strap a bomb to a 12 year old girl and send them to kill innocent civilians. They’re animals. They are lawless and have no respect for human life.
It’s embarrassing that Americans would defend these radical groups and be apologists for them, refusing to see their atrocities on civilians. Not caring that they cheered as thousand of civilians died on 9/11.
Tariq Khan, V… Are you of Muslim decent? I’m sorry that your once peaceful religion is now so full of hate. It’s unfortunate that your blind rage toward Jews clouds your reasoning.
My blind rage towards Jews? Show some evidence of that. Otherwise you are just spewing Islamophobic nonsense. Zionism is not Judaism. Many of the harshest critics of the state of Israel are Jews. You are using a dusty old tactic of trying to paint anyone who is critical of Israel’s policies as anti-semitic. That tactic isn’t going to work anymore. The younger generation is smarter than your generation of white guys. This is not a conflict of Arabs versus Jews. There is much solidarity between Arabs and Jews against Zionism. This is apartheid and genocide being carried out by a Zionist state against a defenseless population.
Both sides don’t blow themselves up on city buses.
Both sides don’t blow up hotels and discos.
Both sides don’t strap explosive vests to 12 year old kids.
Both sides don’t have free elections.
Both sides don’t allow their people the freedom to worship as they please.
Both sides don’t want to exterminate the Jews.
Both sides don’t drop leaflets (and phone calls) and warn the enemy that a war is coming and to please leave or take cover.
Both sides aren’t led by a terrorist organization like Hamas.
“Israel has the moral obligation as the agressor to seek a peacful solution. They could lay down their lives like the Anti-Nephi-Lehi’s or they could simply stop all of those things I listed and extend the hand of fellowship.”
WHy aren’t you calling on Palestinians to lay down their lives as the Anti-Nephi-Lehites did? You are a little inconsistent in your calls for peace.
Viliami,
Out of curiosity, what have you read on the topic apart from Blumenthal’s Goliath?
So, you don’t think that calling for my country to be dismantled, and for my family and friends to leave is extremist?
Are you stating that there was no Palestinian violence before 1948, and that every case of Palestinian violence is caused by Israel?
Exactly Mark, he is suggesting that Israel is the ONLY reason there is violence. Hamas wouldn’t have killed Fatah, their political rival who are also Palestinian were it not for Israel. And prior to 1948, Palestine was as peaceful as Disneyland.
In fact, the entire middle east is a peaceful place where Jews are not welcome, where they hold hands and sing songs and love one another. They are a peaceful people you see, and it’s only Israel that creates conflict in that region.
It’s Israels fault that they have horrible schools and homes and no food- but the finest tunnels the world has ever seen . If only Israel would just die as Hamas seeks in its charter, then Palestine and the middle east could be a prosperous land of freedom and peace and tranquility.
Wow. Lots of problems here.
To say that you stand with the Palestinians because “it’s time for peace” is a massively obvious dichotomy. You don’t even have to be old enough to remember the 90’s when Hamas were routinely using suicide bombers. You just have to have a memory that’s good for a month, when 3 teenage Jews were assassinated. If that’s the type of “peace” you’re interested in, I hope I don’t live near you.
You’re also no authority on what Mormons do or “should” believe. You’ve left the Church. That was your decision. But citing a quote from 75 years ago as the end all/be all of the Lord’s revealed word on war is just foolish. What of the men who actually SERVED in WWII and went on to become area authorities, apostles and prophets? What of members who choose to be enlisted in Iraq and Afghanistan and then are called to be Bishops, Stake Presidents, etc.? As members, we’re aware of this type of selectivity; believing a dead prophet over a live one. What you’ve stated is very selective, indeed, and needless to say, “All war is bad, but we’re totally cool with Palestine’s warfare because… reasons” isn’t official Church doctrine.
Lastly, someone disagreed with you in the comments and you responded by playing the race card. You’re a coward. I thought you said in your last article that one of the reasons you left the Church was because of racism. Apparently not since you have some racial prejudice yourself. You’ve lost all credibility on this issue.
Is there no middle ground here? Instead of the endless bickering between those who are “Pro-Israel” vs. those who are “Pro-Palestine” why is it such a struggle to unite as simple Anti-Violence, admit that both sides have blood on their hands & propaganda fueling their cause, and that we should do everything possible to seek after a peaceful solution to this humanitarian catastrophe?
I take issue with the tactics used by both sides, both in regards to the situation in Gaza and in the comment section to this blog post. Viliami, evoking “white privilege” does nothing to further the discussion, as that draws lines of unnecessary separation and implies that non-whites living in America are allowed to hold an opinion on the matter while whites are not. And no matter how precarious the 1948 creation of Israel was, it’s here now, and excusing those who want to wipe it off the map is no solution either. And Jason, trying to narrow the whole situation down, in the spirit of warmonger Sean Hannity, to one single question (“Is Hamas a terrorist organization?”) gets us nowhere. If the answer is yes (which would be my answer, by the way), does it justify Israel’s immense infliction of collateral damage, as we see happens in spite of the leaflets it drops and text messages it sends? Also, to attack an entire religion as “so full of hate” when America, run mostly by Christians, has become the most military-minded, weapons-producing, empire-building nation in the history of the planet is a tad hypocritical. “Peaceful” Christians in America and Europe don’t have to worry about the temptation to resort to violent acts of desperation to further their cause; they’ve got the American defense department spending hundreds of billions of dollars a year to “protect” them.
What we as followers of Christ, who told us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us, need to do is live by that spirit in our lives and encourage that same spirit in the hearts of the Israelis and Palestinians. It’s the only way to achieve reclamation in the matter.
There is no “both sides.” There is one side with billions of dollars of funding and massive military aid from the U.S., and there is another side with nothing. There is one side doing the vast majority of the killing, and one side being slaughtered. There is one side with all the power, and one side that is kept powerless and trapped – literally – behind walls. Making peace is the responsibility of the people with all of the power and privilege. The only responsibility oppressed people have is to resist domination and defend themselves and their communities. Viliami is absolutely right that the responsibility for peace lies with Israel. You can’t back a wolf into a corner, poke it with a stick, and then when it bites you act like the wolf is at fault.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, Tariq. Israel has a huge responsibility here, and what they’ve done to Gaza is reprehensible. But I would argue that what Hamas is doing isn’t any morally better (though they’ve definitely caused fewer casualties), and even if you think it is, it isn’t going to help Palestinians achieve freedom. This “whack-a-mole” approach to warfare that both sides take just causes more suffering among innocents and no end to violence. This dispute can only be solved peacefully. And yes, Israel and her allies, as the more powerful, definitely shoulder much of that responsibility.
Khan: “Making peace is the responsibility of the people with all of the power and privilege…”
Ah, no – actually it takes two for peace. One side may continue violence, as do the Palestinians. They have nothing? Nonsense. The rockets, RPGs, mortars and automatic weapons did not suddenly appear from an alternate dimension in Gaza. Funding from Shia sources (Iran – Hezbollah – and others) and from Sunni sources (Hamas – Saudi Arabia – and others) aren’t ‘nothing’ by any means.
And ‘wolf?’ Really? Stretch that metaphor a bit further and what if it’s a pack of wolves – and some of them are rabid. The Palestinians have a deep historical claim to the land. The Israeli’s have an equally deep historical claim to the land. Hamas, per its founding documents, calls for the eradication of Israel. Rabid wolf, anyone?
The Mormonion, if Viliami had expressed a reasonable stance like the one you articulated, I would not have had a problem with it.
Nice try trying to characterize my position. And as for our military budget, it was because of that that we were able to liberate Nazi Germany. Our military was able to fight an oppressed people living under communist USSR. The US has done more good for other nations than any country on the face of the earth.
Even in Palestine, we have given billions and billions of foreign aid to their country. Yet they take that foreign aid and build things like tunnels and advanced weapons to fire at Israel. Do they feed their own people with it? Do they build homes for their people? Didn’t Israel even allow the Palestinian President’s wife to come to Israel to have surgery? Could Netenyahu’s wife go to Palestine and not be murdered? Of course not.
Take your hate America crap somewhere else.
I have no hate for America. I do believe America’s foreign policy, however, is disastrous and unchristian. I’m not particularly interested in being an apologist for the state. If you are, be my guest. Even in the case of World War II that you bring up, yes, we ousted the monstrous Adolf Hitler, but in so doing, allied with an even more prolific killer, Joseph Stalin. Europe was liberated only inasmuch as Soviet Russia had anything to say about it. Is it any wonder it led to 45 years of Cold War that resulted in a number of terrible (not to mention unconstitutional) conflicts in Asia and Central America? That’s what happens when we entangle alliances, as the Founding Fathers warned, in the first place.
You make a good point about foreign aid. It never goes to those who truly need it, no matter where we send it. That’s why I’m with Ron Paul and say no to all foreign aid. The government shouldn’t be taking our tax dollars and sending them to foreign governments–any foreign governments. Their disputes are theirs to solve. We as a free people should be informed, and stand up for oppressed people, and even donate money of our own if we so choose. But letting Big Government do that for us is always a bad idea.
I don’t necessarily agree with our foreign policy either but I completely disagree that we are an un-Christian nation to others.
Which country shed blood to free Europe? Who raised and gave billions to feed the hungry in Africa? Who gave billions to provide relief for those in Indonesia following the Tsunami? Indonesia, a country almost entirely of Muslims who cheered at our tragedy on 9/11. Who shed blood to provide freedom and democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq? We provide more aid and more relief than any other nation? Who stands up for countries that are invaded by their more powerful neighbors (like Iraq and Kuwait)? Who stands up for the freedom and rights of gays in Russia and the middle east, women and Christians persecuted in the middle east, children that are in impoverished nations, nations where AIDS and Malaria and other diseases kill millions. Who fights for those who can’t fight for themselves? The US does.
And our government will move heaven and earth to save every American, from the Cpt Phillips on the sea, to a peace corp worker kidnapped by terrorists. They will save and protect their own like no other country will.
You don’t have to like our foreign policy or foreign entanglements but please don’t ever, ever, ever suggest that they are not Christian. America is the most Christian country in the world and does more good for more people than any country ever has.
While some of those things are nice, do they excuse all the malicious things carried out by the U.S. Government? Call me crazy, but I just can’t call firebombing Tokyo and nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki, to take one example from the conflict we call the “Good War,” very Christian. We can try to justify ourselves by saying we had to fight that way, but ultimately that’s all it is–a justification. And a false one at that.
Now, the things you mentioned. I am all for aiding the oppressed and caring for the needy. But again, why do we rely on Big Brother for that? Government aid to foreign nations, aside from being unconstitutional (see D&C 98), has unintended consequences. Even something as seemingly docile as giving food to Africa can have negative effects–it often disrupts local economies, whose farmers become disenfranchised due to an overflow of external product coming in, which can in turn lead to hunger crises being extended rather than alleviated. The negative effects of the welfare state can be seen on a global level as well as a local level.
This is not to say we should ignore the hungry. But these endeavors should be taken privately. In a truly free society, such humanitarian work would be done solely via individuals, organizations, and non-profits, not through forced methods like taxation funneling. To be a Christian nation means that Americans–the people–are Christian in word and in deed. That they devote their liberty to uplifting the poor and downtrodden. The idea that a state–such as America–can be Christian is absurd. But as long as the government continues to spend us into oblivion through endless wars and other pet causes, all the while asking its citizens to rely on it to perform their Christian duties for them–that is the antithesis to Christianity.
You mentioned Hiroshima. What happened there was tragic but that kind of killing saved countless human lives, because they surrendered days later. We lost thousands and thousands of men in battle fighting Japan. Should we have dropped the bomb after 100,000 of our guys died? What about 500,000? How many had to die before it became justified? Even today Japan is a peaceful country that does much good in the world community.
As for Africa and the farmers, that’s a silly comparison. They have no crops or rain or food to feed their people and our foreign aid provides that to them. You could argue that it isn’t constitutional and I might agree with you, but it certainly is the Christian thing to do. I agree, outside groups do much better at rendering aid than does government.
And ditto for the “endless wars” you mention. Perhaps we shouldn’t involve ourselves in Rwanda or Afghanistan or Iraq or Croatia or anywhere else we have engaged in. But we do it because we are trying to save lives and help a people who are in need. We were founded on Judeo Christian principles. We don’t invade a country seeking to steal land from them. We do it to help others.
So please, again, argue all you want against the nanny, interventionist government that should mind it’s own business on foreign matters. But don’t suggest that we are not Christian in our foreign policy. Right or wrong, we act often out of a Christian duty to help others.
And I challenge you to go find a WWII vet, and tell him that we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. If your son or daughter are ever in a prolonged war with a fierce enemy hellbent on destroying all Americans, you will pray that whatever types of weapons are necessary to win. Flattery and roses won’t convince the enemy to put down their weapons and call it done but bombs will.
Much of the so-called history behind the use of the bombs to “save 500,000” has been discredited, a lot of it propaganda driven by Truman’s Secretary of War Henry Stimson.
Japan was willing to surrender by the summer of 1945, with the desire to keep their emperor (who would have remained as a powerless figurehead). Was the utter destruction of Hiroshima/Nagasaki worth ousting him?
But even peace negotiations AND the ousting of the emperor were still possible. The authors of the US Strategic Bombing Survey, in their official report in 1946, concluded:
“the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan… certainly prior to December 31, 1945 and in all probability prior to November 1, 1945 Japan would have surrendered, even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.”
The bomb was dropped mainly as a message to the world (and Russia in particular, who we did not want in Japan) that we had a nuclear bomb and weren’t afraid to use it.
Regardless of all this, Japan was done. There was no need for a land invasion. “Total war” has no place in Christianity, particularly Mormonism. In the Book of Mormon, Captain Moroni only wished to protect his homelands. To see what happened to the Nephites the second they sought retribution by going after the Lamanites in their lands, I suggest reading Mormon 3 and 4. The Book of Mormon provides a warning about warfare I take very seriously. We disregarded its message in World War II, no matter how noble our intentions were.
No surprise that someone named “Tariq” would be an Israel hating, Muslim sympathizer who can’t even condemn suicide bombings, Hamas, Hezzbolah, Islamic Jihad, or any acts of terror committed by Muslims, even against other Muslim people.
No, you just keep carrying their water, deflecting, dodging, and avoiding any criticism leveled at Muslims.
Go on, Jason. What is it exactly about me being named Tariq that automatically puts me in a certain category? Please continue. I find your racist stereotyping fascinating. And the term “Muslim sympathizer” that you used, that’s some old school bigotry right there. Yes, I do sympathize with Muslims who have to deal with ignorant fools like you who believe that the word Muslim is a synonym for terrorist.
Go ahead and criticize a Muslim terrorist group, like Hamas, even one time and I will see that you can be objective. Don’t worry though, you can’t and won’t do it.
I on the other hand can be objective. I find people like Timothy McVey (OKC bomber), or the KKK, or any other radical group to be abhorrent murders and not in keeping with American values. I can cricisize my own people, you just keep carrying the water for terrorist organizations.
The victims of this are the Palestinian people who live under tyranny from jihadist groups like Hamas, and who kill their own people (like Fatah). They are much like innocent civilians who lived under Hitler. They are victims of ruthless leaders.
I have criticized Hamas, and several Palestinians have criticized Hamas. That doesn’t change the fact that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians. Israel isn’t just targeting Hamas. It is targeting all Palestinians.
Let me sum up the “reasoning” I’m seeing on this thread by supporters of Israeli apartheid and colonialism: Palestinian = Muslim = Terrorist. That’s the basic argument of these ignorant bigots. Even on the surface that “reasoning” is ridiculous. All Palestinians are not Muslims, and most Muslims are not terrorists. It is astounding that I should even have to explain these basic facts to adults. Racism, ethnocentrism, and religious bigotry cloud people’s critical reasoning functions. I would like to see you privileged apologists for Israel live under the conditions Israel forces upon Palestinians. I would like to see you live that way for even one month, and then see how enthusiastic you are about Israeli apartheid.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who lived through some of the worst years of South African Apartheid has said that Israeli apartheid is even worse than it it was in South Africa. That is pretty damning.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Desmond-Tutu-Israel-guilty-of-apartheid-in-treatment-of-Palestinians-344874
It damns Tutu’s intellectual honesty more than anything.
Right, because you know more about apartheid than he does. Uh huh.
http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/hamas-founders-son-mosab-hassan-yousef-says-israel-is-fighting-on-behalf-of-the-free-world/story-fnh81ifq-1227007949956
Son of Hamas founder says Israel is fighting for freedom. He supports Israel and finds Hamas to be nothing more than cowards and terrorists.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Thousands of Jews in Tel Aviv have been protesting against Israel’s aggression in Gaza and accusing their own government of human rights violations and war crimes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Have ya’ll seen the documentary The Gatekeepers? The movie is built around interviews with six men who pretty much consecutively ran the Shin Bet, Israel’s internal-security intelligence operation, from 1980 to 2011. Even these former Shin Bet leaders – hardly what you would call anti-Israel voices – referred to what Israel has become in its treatment of Palestinians as “cruel” and “repressive”.
Pretty much everyone in the world knows that Israel is doing wrong. It’s sad and pathetic to see some of the guys on this thread continue to hold steadfastly to the outdated, disproven, dusty old Israeli state propaganda lines. As Chris Crass said:
“As the world responds to the massacre in Gaza and the naked aggression of Israel – with United Nations condemnations, with governments throughout Latin America denouncing Israel’s violence, and Spain and Britain cutting off arms trades, we must all decide what side of history we are on, because at some point it will be very much like asking “did you support the South African apartheid regime (actively or through your silence) or did you support the ANC and Mandela?”
As intelligent an analysis as saying “There is no “both sides.””
It can be, especially if you use it to dismiss someone’s argument.
Sorry, I meant to quote “do you also consider male privilege a sexist accusation?”
You have misrepresented Jeremiah 31:15 in your opening post.
You did this by taking a statement applied to the slaughter of Jewish children and distorted it to apply to those who slaughter Jewish children.
Poor form.
Corbin, well-stated. Viliami also uses the image of the Massacre of the Innocents in that way.
KHAN!!!
“Jesus is the standard by which we measure ourselves and that which goes on around us, including war. Thankfully we have a record of His mortal ministry, because if He were born in Gaza today his ministry would likely have been limited to his childhood and his cross an Israeli missile. Ignominious death takes on new meaning when loose rubble marks your resting place.”
I can make an equally bad argument based on rhetorical appeals to emotion. “Thankfully we have a record of His mortal ministry, because if He were teaching in his youth at the temple today He would likely have been kidnapped, and His cross a Palestinian bullet. Ignominious death takes on new meaning when some desert rocks mark your resting place.”
Tariq and V illustrate why this war is still going on. You are fighting the war, only yours is a war of words. You put your head in the sand and refuse to even acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization. You refuse to acknowledge the suicide bombings in public locations by the Palestinians.
I’m sure Israel wishes it’s relationship with Palestine was like it’s relationship with Jordan or Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Israel is the only free democracy in the middle east. Don’t you enjoy living under a democracy? Do you enjoy the freedom to worship as you choose? Do you enjoy the right to vote? Most countries in the middle east don’t enjoy that right except Israel.
I’m fine with a two state solution but Hamas, leaders of Palestine, see no end to this until Israel is destroyed. Israel won’t let that happen.
My heart breaks for the Palestinian women and children who live in tyranny under the rule of terrorists. I hate that so many innocent lives are lost in this conflict, just as so many peaceful Germans or Japanese were killed in WWII thanks to their war mongering leaders.
The Israelis have given up land in the past. Free countries like the US give billions in aid to the Palestinian people. Hamas and the radical Muslim Jihad terrorists groups are the enemy here, not Israel or Palestine.
I would ask that Tariq and V take some of their own advice and put down their weapons of words and let this go. You aren’t changing hearts or minds, but rather confirming my beliefs.
I hope someday the entire middle east lives under the same freedom that you both enjoy in America.
Ha!
Right, because the problem isn’t apartheid, settler colonialism, and genocide. The problem is that Viliami and I are using our dangerous words. If only we would shut up about Israel’s indiscriminate killing of civilians, then there would finally be peace in the Middle East!
I’ll be able to respond to some of your comments later this evening.
I’ll stop by later but I thought this was interesting. Combine the images of dead civilians with these pictures of the destruction Gaza infrastructure and homes and you’ll begin to see things “as they really are.”
Why won’t Israel choose peace. Why do they continue the bloodbath?
http://graphics.wsj.com/gaza-before-after/?standalone=1
Although I implicate Hamas’ role in the perpetuation of violence perhaps more than Tariq and V, I agree with the characterization of Israel as an oppressor in Palestine. I used to strongly feel that Israel had the right to defend itself aggressively against rocket attacks, etc– before I learned that building materials are restricted from going into Gaza because of a B.S. policy that says that they could be used against Israel. Every one of those buildings, homes, schools, hospitals that Israel drops leaflets on and then bombs can’t be rebuilt. And as far as stashing weapons in schools and other public buildings, well- the whole region is roughly 35 x 8 miles wide, and there are 1.8 million people there. There is no place to put anything that isn’t right in or next to a school or hospital or what have you. They have no economy due to the heavy restrictions on everything put on by Israel, and huge unemployment. Hamas was, if you remember, democratically elected. Is Hamas the good guys? I don’t think so. But neither is Israel. The Palestinians are desperate, poor, and hopeless. They at least deserve our sympathy, and in my opinion merit our support.
Some of you may have seen this cartoon come out recently, and heard of the sort of stir it created, but it’s pretty solid.
http://dailycartoonist.com/index.php/2014/07/28/slc-jewish-community-take-issue-with-pat-bagley-cartoon/
“And as far as stashing weapons in schools and other public buildings, well- the whole region is roughly 35 x 8 miles wide, and there are 1.8 million people there. There is no place to put anything that isn’t right in or next to a school or hospital or what have you. ”
Rockets aren’t placed in Hamas administration buildings, so the Gaza is so tiny argument is weak at best.
On incremental genocide –
Israel has within its power to stop the genocide, stop the occupation, stop the apartheid, stop the murders.
If Israel wanted peace it could have it.
http://my.firedoglake.com/ctuttle/2014/08/01/the-incremental-genocide-in-gaza/
You won’t be able to find a definition of “incremental genocide” that cannot be applied to Palestinians as the perpetrators.
As members we have the responsibility to oppose the use of violence when peaceful alternatives are available.
When will we take the Book of Mormon seriously,
“And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.”
Exactly. Neither of these are occurring.
You really don’t know much about it, do you? Even Begin showed himself less of an extremist in later years as a statesman, but to claim the Etzel ideology of 1948 stands for everything in modern Israel is baloney.
Tariq, I’m also not going to let you sidestep your little misrepresentation of the letter, and its approving stance towards mainstream Zionism.
But Viliami, you aren’t a member anymore, or has something changed since your public announcement of leaving the church?
While I did not have to live through it, I do know something about it, having known several South African Jews who were longtime Mandela supporters. There is more than enough documentary and anecdotal evidence to show that as factual comparisons, statements like Tutu’s above are intellectually dishonest and fatuous.
Allen, I’m still a member. I just don’t go to church.
I’m sure that you can forgive me for assuming that when you say that you are leaving, that you are leaving, even if your name hasn’t been removed. “My decision to leave was made a few weeks before Kate Kelly was excommunicated. My priesthood leaders know and have expressed their love and understanding. I will not ask to have my name removed from Church records, I will simply go inactive.”
No, not the entire international community. None of the things outlined in the quote are actually a feature of Israel, sorry. I have direct personal experience countering that.
“The Israeli state kills significantly more innocent people than Hamas does. The violence is not comparable at all, it is completely asymmetrical.”
This argument-by-numbers is silly because it doesn’t speak to Hamas’ intent, merely to their means. And before you try to suggest that Hamas would not kill more people if it had the means, consider this. Rockets can now land in Haifa, which is along the northern coastal strip. Several years ago, Hamas only possessed rockets that had a rather short radius, IE, Sderot.
Allen, its all relative. It was the Palestinians who insisted that 1000 terrorists be exchanged for just 1 IDF soldier. These were 1000 terrorists who were going to be used as suicide/homocide bombers, some who were captured while being strapped with explosives intended to kill innocent women and children and not IDF soldiers.
The Palestinians said that 1000 lives were worth trading for 1 Israeli life. And yet they cry at the disproportionate numbers who are being killed today?
Allen, whether I’m a member or not (I am) doesn’t prevent me from speaking on Mormon issues using Mormon sources of doctrine.
Again, there is no way to justify support of Israel as a Mormon-
As members we have the responsibility to oppose the use of violence when peaceful alternatives are available. Israel has the moral responsibility as the aggressor to begin the peace process by ending its incremental genocide, apartheid, occupation and imprisonment of Palestinians.
Love is an alternative to violence. When will we take the Book of Mormon seriously?
“And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.”
There is no way to reconcile Israeli violence with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. There is no way to justify support of Israel as a Mormon.
This argument is now become quite silly.
Does anyone really think that if every Jew came to live in, say the United States of America, that the Israeli-Palestinian region would suddenly be peaceful? These people in the middle east have been killing each other for thousands of years. Just look at Syria today, where I suspect not many Jews live. They are in the midst of a bloody civil war.
Then you hear ridiculous statements like – Hamas was elected in Palestine. Do you not know that they killed their political rivals, Fatah, who were willing to broker a peaceful solution with Israel. Geez, I wonder how many Republicans this country would have and how many would hold elected office if the Democrats were all killed? Please spare me your “Hamas was elected” garbage.
The war Israel is fighting is against the terrorist groups of Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and the rest of them that seek to kill all Jews and Christians, everywhere, in every country, in every part of the world. And until these terror organizations are killed or captured, there won’t be any peace.
Tariq and V blame Israel for these groups existence and refuse to call them terrorists. If you can’t bring yourself to call these groups terrorists, then debating you is a waste of time.
There is but one country in the middle east that will allow Christians to worship peacefully and gives rights to women and has free elections and allows dissenters to protest their government without fear of being killed and allows gays to be gay and allows Jews and Muslims to coexist peacefully together. Only one nation in the middle east enjoys the freedoms that Tariq and V enjoy in the US and that is Israel. I stand with the nation who promotes and protects freedom of its people.
I stand with Israel.
Jason, perhaps you’ll address my comment. There is no way to justify support of Israel as a Mormon-
As members we have the responsibility to oppose the use of violence when peaceful alternatives are available. Israel has the moral responsibility as the aggressor to begin the peace process by ending its incremental genocide, apartheid, occupation and imprisonment of Palestinians.
Love is an alternative to violence. When will we take the Book of Mormon seriously?
“And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.”
There is no way to reconcile Israeli violence with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. There is no way to justify support of Israel as a Mormon.
“Allen, whether I’m a member or not (I am) doesn’t prevent me from speaking on Mormon issues using Mormon sources of doctrine.”
No, but if in your last post you classed yourself as an outsider, you shouldn’t be terming yourself a member in order to force home your particular interpretation. It is disingenious at best.
“Again, there is no way to justify support of Israel as a Mormon”
You keep repeating that mantra, however, it simply isn’t true. No matter how often you repeat it.
Viliami, you do realise that you are quoting (or prooftexting) from the same book in the Book of Mormon that also says “Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed,” and includes not only lengthy descriptions of war, but also approvingly writes of targeted assassinations?
Allen,
I repeat the “mantra” because it is true. Jesus, my exemplar (apparently not yours) showed us that non-violence is the standard. We should aspire to love our enemies.
Moreover, I’m not prooftexting anything. (are you sure you know what that means?) In very rare cases the Book of Mormon suggests it is OK to use violence to defend oneself. However, if you read the book as a narrative (as Mormon intended) we see the eventual destruction of the Nephites. Nephi’s murder of Laban was the foundational act of violence for Nephite culture and that violence was imitated time and time again until the complete annihilation of the Nephites. Violence begets violence. Live by the sword and die by the sword is one major theme of the Book of Mormon.
Nevertheless, what Israel is doing can in no reasonable or rational way be considered defensive and is therefore indefensible.
Allen, in addition to Jesus we have the First Presidency saying,
“Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.”
All Mormons should oppose Israels violence and war because there are other alternatives to pursue.
At least admit your views are contrary to the Church and the gospel and then you’ll be free from those constraints to make whatever argument in favor of death and destruction you want.
“Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . ” (D&C 98:16)
Notice that this scriptures commands us to RENOUNCE WAR and instead proclaim peace.
So Allen and Jason- let’s hear it. Renounce Israel’s war on Palestinians.
“So Allen and Jason- let’s hear it. Renounce Israel’s war on Palestinians.”
And then what?
Lame. Lol
Viliami, I find it rich that you are lecturing people on their views being contrary to the gospel. I’m pretty sure that your spouting racist and sexist sentiment, as well as advocating for ethnic cleansing (be it ever so “peaceful”) is not in harmony with the gospel.
BTW, have you ever read this? http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/48144/Finding-inner-peace-serving-in-military.html
I’m not sure how that answers my question.
I’m sure that you missed it amidst all the other comments, but what have you read on the conflict apart from Blumenthal’s Goliath?
” I’m pretty sure that your spouting racist and sexist sentiment, as well as advocating for ethnic cleansing ”
Don’t make me a Red Herring. Once you concede your position is contrary to the gospel then we’ll be able to talk honestly with one another.
“racist and sexist sentiment, as well as advocating for ethnic cleansing”
You’re misrepresenting my position. Please substantiate your claims. The burden of proof is yours.
“BTW, have you ever read this?”
Yes.
“what have you read on the conflict apart from Blumenthal’s Goliath?”
You’re trying to make my reading list a red herring. My familiarity with Israel ancient and modern is more than adequate.
I’m moving CJ’s comment here so it can be seen by more lurkers, of which there are many on this thread.
“Jason, I don’t know if you have been to Israel or anywhere in the Middle East. For my job I travel frequently to Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt. I have friends and colleagues in all those countries.
I can safely say that like any country Israel isn’t above any moral code. I think the issue here is to separate the country and government of Israel from the Jewish religion. I agree that Jewish people deserve a place to live as do the Palestinians. I don’t agree with the government of Israel’s policies in their handling of the Palestinians. Arab Israelis – both Muslim and Christian – do not have equal rights in Israel. Arab schools get less funding. Only an extremely few schools are mixed between the Jews and others. Leaving the country, the guards at the airport will pull over any car with an Arab in it and interrogate them (and those with them) My Jewish friend told me it was embarrassing to him.
“To say that everyone gets along in the state of Israel is a rather naive comment. People live in their own neighborhoods and hang out with their own kind. The different sects of Jews don’t even get along with each other. One sect of Hasidic Jews is even against Zionism and the state of Israel.
“I think we have to be careful to over generalize. There are many people from many religions and ethic backgrounds on all sides of this issue.
“Regarding the Palestinians leaving Gaza – where are they supposed to go? There are 1.7 million people crowded in an area that is about 5 miles wide and 18 miles long. They have no passports and no way out because the Israeli government has everything blockaded (which is against the UN declarations) They went into UN approved schools and the Israeli military blew that up.
“Many of the tunnels were used to get supplies of food and medicine into Gaza because the Israelis only let in a fraction of what it needed to sustain lives. The Israelis even ban chocolate from Gaza. How insane is that?
“To be against the policies of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitic (after all Palestinians are Semitic too) I stand with all other people as a Mormon and a human being and say the killing of innocent civilians is unjustified. The Israeli government needs to sit at the table and work with the Palestinians. What they are doing is just making more Palestinians supporters of Hamas.”
“Don’t make me a Red Herring. Once you concede your position is contrary to the gospel then we’ll be able to talk honestly with one another.”
Of course, because one cannot be either honestly mistaken, or hold a differing interpretation, right?
“You’re misrepresenting my position. Please substantiate your claims. The burden of proof is yours.”
Racism and sexism? Check. “Mark, you can’t see how white privilege would prevent you from seeing this issue clearly?” Ethnic cleansing? Check. “They have wronged Palestinians in thousands of ways and owe them an apology, money, and the courtesy of leaving. On their way out of Gaza they should stop and kneel in front of every man woman and child and beg their forgiveness.”
“Yes.”
“You’re trying to make my reading list a red herring. My familiarity with Israel ancient and modern is more than adequate.”
Actually, your familiarity is far from apparent, so, yes, your reading is relevant.
“To be against the policies of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitic (after all Palestinians are Semitic too)”
I try to avoid throwing the antisemitic card about too freely, but this is a weak argument. Just because Arabs are classified as Semitic, doesn’t somehow extend the term antisemitism to them. It was coined about Jews, and that has been its usage.
I wanted to restate my position that….
1. there is but one country that is a democracy in the middle east and that is Israel.
2. there is no evidence that violence would be any less in Gaza with or without the Jews. Just look at Fatah vs Hamas as an example of this. Terrorist groups seek to kill everyone who disagrees with them, even their own people of their own faith in the own territory . Nothing I see tells me that Palestine would be land of peace and tranquility (almost like Disneyland) if the Jews all killed themselves tomorrow).
3. I am done arguing and debating with the likes of V and others who cannot even bring themselves to admit Hamas or Hezbollah or the Muslim Brotherhood are terrorist groups. It’s like arguing with someone who insists the sky is green. Every reasonable government and even the UN accept that these are terrorist groups. Democrats and Republicans both agree. The only ones who don’t are Muslims who refuse to be critical of other Muslims.
I’d quit too Jason. Your position(s) are embarrassingly indefensible and untenable. Especially as it relates to Mormonism and its doctrines of peace and love.
If you choose to come back please explain how you support of Israel’s war is in harmony with the gospel.
It must be so easy to pretend that terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t a real threat to your way of life when you live in SLC Utah. Do you ever worry if someone at the mall or movie you attend is strap with enough explosives to kill everyone in sight? Do you worry when you take the light rail that a 12 year old boy with a backpack will blow himself up and kill everyone on the train. Do the folks down in Provo fire hundreds and thousands of rockets at Sandy and West Jordan? Do you ever have to go into bomb shelters because you were fired upon?
I bet you weren’t. You type your hate under the stars and stripes that give us freedom. It’s not a place where terrorist groups rule with an iron fist because they killed their political opponents. Unlike most everywhere in the middle east, we don’t force our women to cover their heads, or tell gays not to be gay. We allow all races and people to vote. We allow everyone to drink or eat what they wish, if they so choose to. They worship where they want, what they want.
So you sit there in your basement and blame Israel, the only democratic country in the middle east- for Palestinian’s problems. But until you live in fear riding on a train or attending the mall or worshiping somewhere, you won’t ever get it.
Once again Jason wraps himself in the flag before fear mongering us into boredom.
Are you even Mormon? Answer my reconciliation questions.
Answer my terrorist organization questions 1st.
I thought so.
You don’t talk like a Mormon. I am not using hyperbole when I say that you talk like a fascist, Jason. You are just mindlessly regurgitating state propaganda and showing absolutely no concern for the humanity of the victims of the siege. Your are identifying with the oppressors rather than with the victims.
Your terrorist organization questions are stupid. You sound like a Sean Hannity wannabe. “Is Hamas a terrorist organization!! Huh?! Is it?! Huh?! Huh!?” And then you pat yourself on the back as if you are clever and just cracked the code.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/10/hamas-is-using-civilians-as-human-shields-but-its-latest-directive-is-the-most-shocking/
Here Hamas’s own leader encourages their people to ignore the Israeli message to leave and instead, to go to the rooftops. They even have pictures of people on the rooftop. This is a clear example of why so many innocent Palestinians are being killed by the IDF. Hamas uses them as shields because Hamas are cowards.
Those kids on the beach weren’t on rooftops or obeying any Hamas directives. All of those innocent people in those UN shelters weren’t on rooftops to obey Hamas directives. No educated people believe your ridiculous propaganda. Israel is killing innocent people because it is a cruel, tyrannical, settler colonialist state, not because Palestinians are obeying Hamas directives to be human shields. But at least you admit that the IDF is Killing innocent people. That’s more than what the Israeli state will admit to.
That website you are citing as your “evidence” is just a crazy far-right wing propaganda site. That’s not evidence. Even the college freshmen I’ve taught, who had very little in the way of learning or experience, are smart enough to know that propaganda websites like that are not evidence. You are letting right-wing ideology make you look silly.
He constantly evades questions when framed within a Mormon context. I’m willing to answer terrorists questions as soon as I get a definition. That word has different meanings to different people, how am I to know which definition.
I think he’s a Zionist troll who just happened upon my thread.
Let me educate you fools.
1st. I am Mormon but I don’t know what difference that makes. We need to only look at the many, many, many chapters in the Book of Mormon to see examples of battles. The terrorists groups like Hamas and Hezzbollah are exactly like the Gadianton robbers who would murder others, while hiding in plain site.
2nd. Who cares what the website I posted is. DO YOU SPEAK ARABIC? There is a video from Hamas’s leader, verifiable and undeniable proof that they are telling their people to get on the rooftops and not in the bomb shelters. How much more evidence do you need. He freaking says it on the video and you dismiss it because it’s on the blaze. Who cares if it was on disney jr- the video is the video. Nice slight of hand to dismiss the evidence ON VIDEO because of the website that posted it. Is youtube propaganda? Here is the youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXZEzbT0H1s
He talks about the strategy of having his people standing on the roof of their homes, and how the strategy “is proving itself, and we call on our people to adopt this practice.”
3rd. Save your BS that Palestine would be some utopia were it not for the Jews and Israel. The truth is that Muslim on Muslim violence has been occurring for thousands of years. Just look at Syria, Iran, Iraq, and even in Palestine. Explain to me why Fatah, who are Palestinian, were killed by Hamas, also Palestinian? Can you worship as you please in Egypt? Do gays and women have rights in Syria? Of course not. So nobody with an IQ over 8 believes that Palestine would be peaceful without Israel. Not with the Hamas-holes running the show there.
4th. This is the last time I will say this. I have said this already several times so please listen. Yes, some Palestinian women and children are indeed victims in this war, but not victims of Israel. They are victims of Hamas, for doing the exact thing the video encouraged them to do. They are told to get on their rooftops, or Hamas hides weapons caches near them and they unfortunately are killed in action.
The Palestinians, and most in the middle east who live in tyranny under the brutal rule of terrorist organizations like Hamas and others- are all victims. They are denied rights. Many are killed if they disagree with authority, like Fatah. These terrorist organizations like Hamas, Hezzbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, Al Queada, ISAS, and many others- are the enemy of peace and freedom and democracy. The enemy isn’t the innocent people who are victims of their violent tyranny.
And stop this Hannity gotcha crap. The fact is that you refuse to admit that these groups are even terrorists. You refuse to condemn Hamas for killing Fatah. You refuse to condemn Hezbollah. You do that because you either think they aren’t terrorists, or because it justifies what Israel is doing to protect herself from the terrorism. You are a coward and have no intellectual honesty whatsoever if you can’t even admit they are terrorist organizations.
Perhaps if you admit that, you will fall under the punishment of death that others have for standing up to these terrorist groups and calling them what they are.
The terrorists are thugs. Murderers. Modern day Gadianton robbers. And I await the day that they are burned to a crisp for their wickedness they commit against their own innocent people (there, I said it again for a 10th time)- and the murder they commit against other people throughout the world.
If you can’t admit that these thugs who strap explosives to women and children are murderous cowards, than you to are a coward.
Jason your hate is palpable,
“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy…
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
Jason your hate and love of war is contrary to the teachings of the prophets,
“Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . ” (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.” (First Presidency Message
Jason your blood lust is evidence that you lack the necessary conversion to produce revulsion of war,
“Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . ” (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.” (First Presidency Message
V, your posts are comical.
Explain to me why so many general authorities fought in World War II? Why did Nephi go to battle? And Ammon? Nephi and Lehi in Heleman? Captain Moroni? Joshua in the bible? And countless other prophets. Each went to war, just as Isreal is, to fight for freedom and liberty against terrorists and tyranny.
That you would play the religious/moral card when your Palestinian people strap bombs to 12 year old kids is unbelievable.
Beyond the few terrorist sympathizer supporters like Tariq- nobody actually takes you seriously.
By the way, nice dodge on the terrorist question. You can’t call murderers, murderers- because they are your people. Sad!
“Terrorist sympathizer supporters like Tariq – nobody actually takes you seriously.” What intelligent discourse you are engaging in! You really grasp the complexity of the situation.
Actually, far more people in the world agree with my criticism of the state of Israel than there are people who agree with your dusty old colonialist authoritarian ideology. “You can’t call murderers murderers because they are your people.” Who are my people? Please explain to me who “my people” are and what you are basing that on.
By the way, for anyone who doesn’t feel like reading through Jason’s long-winded, uneducated, angry, right-wing extremist comments, let me sum them up for you: Palestinian=Muslim=Terrorist. That is the depth of his understanding of the Middle East. Oh, and also anyone with a funny-sounding Muslim name like Tariq is clearly a terrorist sympathizer, or, to directly quote Jason, a “Muslim sympathizer.”
Yes, Jason, you are correct that I do sympathize with Muslims, especially Muslims who are stereotyped and denigrated by hateful bigots like you. You are a dying breed. Your ideas might pass as legitimate discourse on the extremist right-wing websites you get your “news” from, but to most people in the world, the ideology you push would be a joke if it wasn’t so deadly to so many innocent people.
And also, Jason, all that war that your Nephite heroes engaged in, how did that work out for them in the end? They must have created a thriving civilization that endured the test of time. Where are they now?
“By painting a picture of an army that never attacks civilians, that indeed goes out of its way to protect them, the Big Lie says Israelis are civilized and humane, and their Palestinian opponents are inhuman monsters. The Big Lie serves the idea that the slaughter in Gaza is a clash of civilizations, a war between democracy, decency and honor on one side and Islamic barbarism on the other. And in the uncommon cases when news of atrocities penetrates to the wider public, Israel blames the destruction and casualties on Hamas.
George Orwell in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four” called this form of propaganda doublethink. Doublethink uses “logic against logic” and “repudiate[s] morality while laying claim to it.” The Big Lie does not allow for the nuances and contradictions that can plague conscience. It is a state-orchestrated response to the dilemma of cognitive dissonance. The Big Lie permits no gray zones. The world is black and white, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous. The Big Lie allows believers to take comfort—a comfort they are desperately seeking—in their own moral superiority at the very moment they have abrogated all morality.”
-Chris Hedges http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_israel_lies_20140803
Here, Zionists, meet some of the people you are dehumanizing as supposed “terrorists” and “human shields.” http://www.existenceisresistance.org/archives/5051
Duck, dodge, weave… Still no acknowledgement that Hamas is a terrorist group.
I give you credit, you are consistent. 170 posts and you still haven’t answered that question.
Perhaps in your own imagination you fancy that you are a judge and Viliami and I are on trial in your courtroom, but the reality is, you have absolutely no authority over us and we do not have to answer to you. You are just some insignificant troll with whose ideas are informed by ridiculous right-wing propaganda sites.
Indian TV news crew catches Hamas using humans as shields again, firing rockets at Israel and mentions Israel called residents warning them to leave. Indian TV.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033
“If you choose to come back please explain how you support of Israel’s war is in harmony with the gospel.”
I’m not Justin, and I disagree with some of his stance, but this accusation is getting tiresome. how can I support Israel? It is my country, my homeland, for all its faults. It has the right, no, the duty, to protect its citizens.
Yes, we have faults. Yes, we have plenty of them. Part of our civic duty is to work towards changing that. For all that, it does not amount to apartheid, or incremental genocide.
Talking of love is well and fine, but we aren’t the Church of the Beatles.
“An Air Force pilot during World War II, President Packer, knows first-hand the challenges of war. But “there are great blessings, as well, that come to you and your families.”
While serving in the armed forces, President Packer found strength reading the Book of Mormon. He was drawn to the lessons evident in the battles between the Nephites and the Lamanites as described in the 43rd chapter of Alma. The Nephites, reads President Packer, were fighting for a better cause. They did not fight for power — but for their families and church. They were doing that which they felt was their duty.
And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed, Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion (Alma 43:47).
Amid the challenges of combat, members in uniform can keep their testimonies and find opportunities to worship in unusual circumstances, President Packer says. The Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve remembers sharing the sacrament with a fellow Church member in a Filipino jungle during his military service.
Messages of counsel and encouragement are also offered on the DVD by Elder Robert C. Oaks of the Presidency of the Seventy and Elder Lance B. Wickman of the Seventy. Elder Oaks served several decades in the Air Force and flew missions in the Vietnam War, and retired as a four-star general. Elder Wickman is also a Vietnam War veteran, serving two tours as an army infantry officer and as an advisor.”
Renouncing arms and allowing one’s self to be killed is not a decision that we should make for others. Also, the narrative is quite clear that others (including their own children) had to do the fighting for them. The need to fight did not go away because of their great love. In fact, the tragedy is that most of their enemies hardened their hearts.
Please define what love actually is when rockets are raining on your towns, when your people are kidnapped, and when buses, malls, and restaurants are blown to bits by suicide bombers. Please, actually define what it would look like in a way that doesn’t entail leaving your own people to fare as best they can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9CDzsxzTk
The video shows Hamas killing Palestinians including Fatah and civilian youth. These are the ones who lead Palestine, who V and Tariq refuse to condemn. These are the people that they suggest are “peaceful, who ONLY hate Israel”.
They sure seem peaceful.
““Many of the tunnels were used to get supplies of food and medicine into Gaza because the Israelis only let in a fraction of what it needed to sustain lives”
Those are the tunnels along the Egyptian border, not the tunnels on the Israeli border.
Another stain for the Terrorists when their suicide bomber, a boy just 14 years old, failed to blow up and kill 50 innocent Israelis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E
“Arab schools get less funding. Only an extremely few schools are mixed between the Jews and others.”
One of the reasons that very few schools are mixed (although I personally attended attended two different, Jewish schools where I had Arab and Circassian classmates) is practicality. All of the ethno-religious groups are guaranteed the right to education in their own language, and following their own religious calendars. In other words, a mixed school of Jews, Muslims, and Christians could only hold classes from Monday through Thursday (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are out of the question), and it would have to be out for the combined holidays of all three, as well as the summer holiday. Classes would also have to be simultaneously conducted in Hebrew and Arabic. Now, it is true that the Arab sector’s schools are underfunded. Part of it is due to corruption and mismanagement by the Arab officials, but the lion’s share is certainly Israel’s fault. I’ve always been a vocal supporter of improving education and infrastructure on the Arab sector. However, I do want to note that I’m from the North, the periphery. The situation in most of our schools is only slightly better, and all of the schools which I had attended but one were pretty crappy.
“The Israeli government needs to sit at the table and work with the Palestinians. What they are doing is just making more Palestinians supporters of Hamas.”
That might be feasible with Fateh, but hamas is an entirely different kettle of fish. Here are some of my thoughts on why that is. http://difficultrun.nathanielgivens.com/2014/07/23/a-little-on-hamas/
“And while the overwhelming majority of Palestinian dead are civilians – 430 of them children – and 64 of the Israeli dead are soldiers, it is Hamas that is branded terrorist, rather than the Israeli armed forces armed with the most sophisticated targeting technology in the world.”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/06/gaza-crime-washington-jerusalem-carnage-western-support
Tariq Khan,
Apparently 1000 Palestinian lives are worth just one Israeli life, according to their recent prisoner exchange. 1000 terrorists adv would be suicide bombers for one soldier.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050377/Gilad-Shalit-release-Palestinians-wild-celebrations-1-000-militants-freed.html
Ha! How many Palestinians have Israel imprisoned? Israel even imprisons Palestinian children and abuses them. You are really grasping at straws to try and justify apartheid and genocide. There is no question that Israel is the aggressor and Palestinians are the victims. Everyone who isn’t a right-wing ideologue knows this. You want to talk about prisoners, well, sure, let’s do that, but it’s going to make Israel look bad.
Palestinian children abused in Israeli jail: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/08/20128910267627456.html
Israel holding Palestinian children in solitary confinement: https://news.vice.com/article/israel-is-holding-even-more-palestinian-children-in-solitary-for-throwing-rocks
UK report finds IDF tortures Palestinian children: http://rt.com/news/israel-tortures-palestinian-children-report-002/
Yes, let’s talk about prisoners. Good idea.
Is YouTube “right wing propaganda”?
It can be if right wing propagandists post crap on there.
Seriously, do you hear yourself. An Arabic video, played on Arabic television of the leader of Hamas, the leader of the Palestinians, speaking in Arabic about his people, this is right wing propaganda?
That’s like saying Mormons should ignore a video of a talk given by the Prophet at general conference as propaganda because it appeared on an anti Mormon website.
Do you ever read what you type before you hit “submit comment”?
Maybe it’s a wast of time to try to educate people who are willfully ignorant, but for what it’s worth –
Israel/Palestine 101, created by Jewish Voice for Peace:
https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101
Think about all Israel has done and is doing to Palestinians. Is there any of you who wouldn’t feel hate and anger and react violently?
I’m begging you guys to answer honestly. Look at how Israel has treated Palestinians in Gaza. Would none of you react in violence as a result of Israel’s oppression of those in Gaza? We can talk about Hamas’ violence but first answer my question.
V- let’s look at history. Take Utah or the southwest part of the US. White settlers came in and basically claimed your land as theirs from the American Indians. The US fought and beat the Mexicans to win the rights to Texas and the southwest. Was it messy? Sure. Did we do horrible things to the American Indians? Absolutely. And I am not suggesting the ends justify the means.
Does that mean that you should move your family back to where they originated, apologizing to every American Indian you pass on your way out of America? Of course not.
American Indians were badly mistreated but today, they have a few options.
Some live on reservations and enjoy the privileges that come from living in the US (roads, education, healthcare, welfare, military protection, etc). Some have moved into cities where they live among us, working at corporations, and adjusting to our culture and way of life. And some file grievances through the political process, lobbying politicians and seeking peaceful solutions to address issues they have. American Indians don’t strap bombs to women and children to blow up malls and parks and discos. They don’t seek the death of every white American. They don’t fire rockets and missiles from their reservations into American cities. For the most part, they live peacefully with whites in society.
The Jews were given the nation of Israel in 1948 after genocide occurred in Europe, where 6-7 million of them were killed. Palestine was a territory of European countries (Britain I think) and they were given permission from the international community and the UN to return. Could they live peacefully with their neighbors, the Palestinians, as the Indians and white Americans do today? No. Israel has been attacked by its neighbors on dozens of occasions, including on their sacred holidays. Each time they would kick the ass of their attackers. Does that mean they would take more land, as is the consequence of war sometimes? Nope. In fact, they recently returned land to the Palestinians. And I’m sure that they wish they could live as peacefully with the Palestinians as we do with the Indians today. But the Palestinians are hellbent on their destruction, vowing to kill every Jew. They strap bombs to 14 year old boys to blow up buses and parks and malls. They don’t fight, military to military, instead wanting to hide behind suicide bombers and fight in residential communities.
Peace can never be found until the Palestinians can accept that Israel isn’t going anywhere and is entitled to be a free sovereign nation.
187 posts and still no mention if Hamas is a terrorist organization. And videos showing them killing other Palestinians, including their political leaders, are all right wing propaganda.
Videos from India showing rockets fired from populated neighborhoods are right wing propaganda.
Hamas leaders saying in Arabic, on Arabic TV to use civilians as human shields are also right wing propaganda.
You are a clown! You have zero credibility with anyone. You have no intellectual honesty whatsoever. You have a cult like support of terrorist groups and have drank so much koolaid, you can’t even state that are obvious.
V, the problem in saying that any believing Mormon should renounce war is that while this is the correct doctrinal position, it is no longer the cultural position of Mormonism.
Since the 60s and 70s Mormon culture has essentially been pro-war in Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan etc. stemming from the rabid Republicanism in the Mormon corridor. As we know, the Brethen can and will twist scripture and doctrine to support their political affiliation and their pro-Nixon, pro-Bush (1&2) stances.
I agree with you that as a follower of Christ I am obliged to renounce war, but as a Mormon it is culturally expected of me to support warmongering.
Thankfully I no longer feel the need to conform with Mormon cultural expectations – which are strong even here in Australia.
Jason H,
Much of this comment is just flat out untrue. To say that Israel hasn’t done a land grab after pretty much every conflict is laughable. Not to mention the continued settlements. Jason, no one is saying that the Palestinians are blameless. But for some reason you give Israel a carte blanche that they don’t deserve. Not to mention you for some reason act like Hamas is the sole aggressor within Palestinian politics, which is not true- Fatah has had it’s share of violent conflicts as well and at times the two groups work together fairly well, all thugs considered. This “Hamas murdered Fatah” phrase is bewildering when you see how much aggression there was on both sides. Finally, your obsession with defining Hamas as a terrorist group is weird. It is not a stretch of the imagination that one person’s terrorist group is another person’s freedom fighters. There is much more nuance there than you acknowledge, and I think you (and many others) need a more balanced education on the subject than conservative news sites and you tube can provide. You should in all reasonableness grant that Israel is not an innocent player in this conflict.
Jason H</stro
Norman Finkelstein on Gaza conflict, Hamas goals and Iron Dome myth:
“A Hideous Atrocity”: Noam Chomsky on Israel’s Assault on Gaza & U.S. Support for the Occupation
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/7/a_hideous_atrocity_noam_chomsky_on
Ah, good old RT, a bastion of unbiased truth-telling if there ever was one.
Jason you’ve got to cool it with the ad hom attacks.
True hero: Doctor in Gaza City, Belal Dabour, describes the reality and horrors on the ground during the latest bombing, and how under siege life is still hell on earth.
“Finally, your obsession with defining Hamas as a terrorist group is weird. It is not a stretch of the imagination that one person’s terrorist group is another person’s freedom fighters.”
That is a popular saying, but not one taken seriously by people who actually study terrorism.
This morning I read that the terrorist group ISIS is killing Christians and beheading children in Iraq, and yet some of these fools on this post are unable to even criticize IslamoNazi Jihadist terrorist groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qauada, or ISIS. They can’t even bring themselves to call them terrorists after nearly 200 posts, instead they dodge, deflect, and use slight of hand to focus solely on Israel.
Israel, the US, and the rest of the peaceful world understand these Muslim extremist groups and the terrorism they seek to advance on anyone who opposes them.
You guys don’t get it. You never will get it. You’re clueless.
I’m done responding to this thread and I won’t even read your stupid replies, unless Allen posts a comment. He seems to be about the only person who gets it.
Jason Husk,
Just so you know the terror state of israel is responsible for the bloodshed in the middle east and the rest of the world,using white phosphorous gas on innocent civilians like they did in 2006 using palestinian civilians as human shields when they enter homes and continued inhumane terror tactics as evil and diabolical as it gets, a tree will be known bye there fruits, the state of israel was founded bye satan worshipers known as the rothchild family who own the federal reserve, there intelligence agency known as the “mossad” are the ones responsible for the crumbling of the u.s. and for the entire world, there motto is bye way of deception though shall do war, it is a book written bye a former israeli mossad agent whose name is victor ostrovsky read the book and educate yourself, those mossad agents perpetuate as muslim terrorists leaders to convince people that islam is the enemy, just like there motto. The only country on earth that has attacked the united state is the terror state of israel like the american embassy in egypt back in the 1950’s wich they did attacked twice pretending to be arabs, another one in 1967 when they attacked a us navy warship the USS LIBERTY look that one up, those atacks were false flag operations for the us to break alliences with Egypt and of course 9/11 false flag attack for the u.s. to go to war with israels enemys the terror state of israel is the scourge of humanity and the world, it is hell on earth ruled bye satan him self, yes I am a LDS member and yes I am against the terror state of israel and all evil I stand with the palestinian people all the way, not hamas, I stand with palestine.
Jason H,
If thats true why didnt congress do anything about the us navy warship the USS liberty that was attacked bye the terror state of israel and killed 34 my fellow ship mates,these zionist criminals did everything in there power to ignore this attack and completely ignore this atrocity the mainstream media is controlled bye these bastards thats why its never mentioned and those are the people your supporting you are supporting a terror state MR jason h you need a reality check.
Take your terrorist sympathizing, ISIS supporting, Islamo-Nazi, anti Semetic propaganda somewhere else. I’m not interested in it.