If You Like the Gays, Then You Aren’t a Disciple of Jesus : Am I in Crazy-Town?
Yesterday I read in Deseret News that Elder Russell M. Nelson, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, spoke at the BYU Summer Commencement in Provo, Utah on Thursday, August 14. You can listen to Elder Nelson’s commencement speech here (it starts at about 39 minutes).
After listing to Elder Nelson’s address, I thought, “Oh, boy.” I liked very little of what he said. In particular, the following statements are a problem:
“Disciples of the Lord are defenders of [traditional]marriage .”(49 minutes)
and
“Wherever we go, you and I as disciples of the Lord bear a solemn responsibility to proclaim the will of God to all people. And one of the more demanding opportunities of our time is to stand up for the truth regarding the sacred nature of marriage.” (53 minutes)
and
“True intimacy, as planned by our Creator, can be experienced only within the sacred union of a husband and wife because it is enriched by truth and ennobled by the honoring of covenants that husband and wife make with each other and with God.” (55 minutes)
Here are my responses to Elder Nelson:
Why?
Why is this part of a commencement address at a major university?
For young gay Mormons, who have been indoctrinated with this rhetoric, this talk is poison. Elder Nelson is not talking to these young gay Mormons. Elder Nelson is not talking about these young gay Mormons. He is talking AT them. Elder Nelson is telling gay Mormons that they must stand up against themselves!!!! This leaves them with three options:
- Stay and be constantly beat down.
- Leave
- Suicide.
And here is my second response (click the play button):
“In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.
I will no longer be silent.
Miguel Barker-Valdez
Miguel is a Guatemalan-American Mormon living in the Northwest with his family. He is one of the proprietors of the Rational Faiths blog.
All posts by Miguel Barker-Valdez
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! I'm one of those gay Mormons who sees this as poison…it hurts…I'm glad to know I have at least one Ally 🙂
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! I'm one of those gay Mormons who sees this as poison…it hurts…I'm glad to know I have at least one Ally 🙂
You have many allies. And it is poison. Thanks for being strong and declaring publicly that this stuff is hurtful… sending you a cyber hug!
Thank you! Tragic talk filled with agenda on Nelsons part. So uncool of him to make rules of who is a disciple is. Based on his words he certainly isn't.
And to all you BYU grads that are not Mormon we command you as well to hate gays and uphold the new and everlasting covenant of polygamy, uh…err….I mean uphold traditional marriage which we didn’t practice until the government seized our assets for not stopping the practice of polygamy.
I mean come on….these guys are claiming nspiration? From what source? The dribble coming out of his mouth is nothing short of offensive and extremely harmful. Luckily though the lord will never let his servants the prophets lead us astray
Thank you! So sad that love, support, and happiness are not the focus. Imagine how different the speech (and it’s influence) would be if “true unconditional love” was projected, embraced, and taught.
Perfect-I am not only silent-I have been told I use a megaphone about this crap! I will not stand for it! Shout it from the mountain brother Barker! LOL!
I don’t understand why these people are so sure what the will of God is or that why they see themselves as the enforcers.
I dislike it. A lot.
I didn’t mean to submit yet…
Aren’t we charged with spreading God’s LOVE? Since when have we been charged with enforcing God’s will? Wasn’t that Lucifer’s plan??
This is horrible. I am appalled at this. Hatred is not welcome in the church I belong to.
You forgot the fourth option, conform to the commandments. If you ignore that option you throw out the option that commandments actually exist.
I love the gospel and the church. Messages like this from Elder Nelson are beyond troubling. They betray a shallow understanding of Christ, his gospel, and our own church history. Far from building up Zion, remarks like these tear it down, fostering contention and divisiveness among us. I will pray for Elder Nelson, that he may be enlightened. This is the “endure to the end” part, I suppose.
Thank you for standing up for gay mormons.
Yes , we all have stumbling blocks , pray to Heavenly Father , ask in faith and you will receive help with any problem ! Obey the commandments , same sex attraction along with so many other sexual fetishes is a sin……a stumbling block ……treat it as such and don't expect our leaders to soften there approach to any type of weakness/sin just because it is your particular cross please !!!
Murray. Before you speak, why do t you think for yourself. First of all, homosexuality is not a fetish, it is not a weakness, it is not a sin, it is this exact same BS that has caused so many thousands of gay LDS to commit suicide, to be kicked out of their houses, etc. you obviously know nothing about homosexuality and should cease from ever speaking the same lines of stupidity ever again. They are offensive and are not wanted nor needed.
You are wrong, and the LDS church is wrong on its stance of homosexuality. It was obviously such an important issue that Christ never saw fit once to address it. How about instead of being defenders of traditional marriage….which is laughable at best especially when coming from the LDS church….how about the church shit up about the evils of homosexuality and start addressing the issues of malnourished children, the need for fresh drinking water, eradicating diseases, creating hospitals and homeless shelters….there are so many actual worthwhile topics to discuss and address and yet they choose one about defending traditional marriage. And then, people come on like you and spew the same filth out of your mouth that these leaders have been spewing and it does nothing to improve the lives of those around us
If you wish to predict the mind of the Lord, all you have to do is look at the prevailing political beliefs among conservative octegenarians at any point in time. Truly God’s ways are not mysterious at all.
The LDS church (for many decades) taught that dark-skinned people were less devoted in the pre-existence, hence they were cursed with black skin & servitude to white people.
Why then does it come as any suprise when members of the same church refuse to change their ideas about LGBT people? Someday, homophobes will look as stupid as racists do at this point in time. Mark my words, within 50yrs, the LDS church will accept LGBT.
@Murray Renton: Well i always marvel over the miss understanding is US marriage debate. Also it makes me sad because in that way Apostles and People there callings I respect and uphold bring in political talks. Brother Nealson is very right with what he sad about marriage and it coming from God and can't be changed by man. But how can he and other fail so sadly in understanding that the marriage by god is preformed by the authority of the priesthood in the Temple. The public discussion, even if using the same word "marriage", talks about a governmental contract and rights and privileges given by the authority of the government, not god. It also unequal to everything we believe about what marriage is about in the church. To fail to understand that here we talk over to different thinks is a very sad circumstances, as we as members should support everything that has good sound. Article of faith 13. And giving peoples security and a future with values that we value very high is the most good reason for us to support it. The brethren bringing in politics and we don't have to take it at all. That is their personal view.
Thank you for that post. Very disturbing to see how wrong the LDS leaders really are, especially, when they use the name of Christ to hurt people. I gave up on them, they just don't get it!
Whenever any two people do the work required of an enduring relationship, that work experience makes them into better people. This is always true. It is true whether the two people are a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. If Elder Nelson doesn't understand this, he knows nothing about marriage.
Woah! Elder Nelson NEVER said anything about disliking gays in order to be a disciple of Christ. If you even claim to know the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ, you would know that we are taught to love anyone of any race, culture, or sexual orientation. The LDS Church sees marriage as an institution of bringing children into the world and raising them in a safe and moral environment. It is not a matter of gays should have less rights than others. It is that gays cannot physically fulfill the purpose of marriage under the church's definition. Elder Nelson is simply stating that members should defend this definition of marriage.
Which definition of marriage do you refer to Christin….the definition of the new and everlasting covenant of polygamy in D&C 132….the definition that Brigham young and other prophets gave to it…..or the definition that the church gives now of “traditional marriage” that doesn’t include polygamy and seeks to impose it’s new definition on all those Mormons and non Mormons alike?
A safe and moral environment….what does that mean? Gays are not safe? Gays are not moral?
Gays cannot fulfill the purpose under the church’s definition of marriage….um…neither can sterile humans, unwed humans, and many others….so how does that fit into it all? And once again….are you referring to the church’s definition as it pertains to D&C 132 that is still canonized scripture or to the new modified meaning?
It is so ridiculous to continue reading these ridiculous statements with all the justification that follows. Stop with the BS and actually think about it for a few minutes how ridiculous it is for the LDS church to claim the moral high ground as it pertains to marriage doctrine.
I’ll admit, I did not mean to make it sound like gays are not safe or moral. I merely meant that they cannot produce children. The definition I’m referring to is the one stated in “The Family, A Proclamation to the World.” I quote, “We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.” “Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.” As for those who who are sterile and have circumstances preventing marriage, In “Families in the Church” Handbook 2:Administering the Church, I quote, “Faithful members whose circumstances do not allow them to receive the blessings of eternal marriage and parenthood in this life will receive all promised blessings in the eternities, provided they keep the covenants they have made with God.” The truth is that I have thought about it. And I believe in what is one of the foundations of this church: modern revelation.
I’m sorry, but that is not what we are taught. We are told that, sure, but not ever taught or there is never focus on how to love gay people. Focus in these talks is always about things that directly harm gay people. Defending “traditional marriage” forcing them into celibacy, etc. In turn, many LDS members go on to proclaim their love for gay people. They tell them they love them all the time, but they don’t show it.
I honestly believe what will cause the biggest change in perspective for most people is to actually get to know a gay person. Not become acquainted with, not try to get to know them for the sake of them being a project or being able to say “I know lots of gay people” etc. Actually be friends, actually listen, actually hear their desires, the way they feel, their pain. See that they are no different in the way they love than you or I. Seriously, the ignorance needs to end somewhere.
You should read, “Same-Gender Attraction” -Elder Dallin H. Oaks & Elder Lance B. Wickman. It has a lot of information in which you spoke of.
Whoa. If you attend church you know that being gay is pretty close to being in outer darkness. Your logic about the purpose of marriage is full of holes too. You are in danger of becoming like every other right wing fundamentalist when you use arguments that make no logical sense. Elder Nelson wants to impose his religion on others similar to militant Islam. Joseph Smith taught that people are free to choose their beliefs. The church should follow his advice. Don't carry the water for the bigots.
I have a personal witness that Heavenly Father accepts LGBT saints as they are and loves them as any other. He doesn't want them to be anything but what they are and can be. It's the foolishness of man that causes problems. The stumbling block is your failure to love and accept God's creation.
So once again, an apostle, whose charge is to witness of Christ although he has never met Him, attempts to define for others what it means to follow Christ. When these guys open their mouths, I'm always reminded of the first guy Lehi meets in his dream in 1 Nephi 8. He appears to be a man of holiness who bids Lehi to follow him, but when Lehi does as the holy man bids, Lehi becomes hopelessly lost and confused as to where he is.
The best thing we can all do for our spiritual growth is learn to ignore these dark-suited clowns. Their way leads to a vast wasteland.
Amen, rock. These are not spiritual men.
You are right about the institution of marriage being under attack. But you are mistaken about who is doing the attacking. Liars, adulterers, abusers. They are destroying marriage. Infidelity, hatred and dishonesty are the enemies we should be fighting. Plenty of LGBT brothers and sisters know how to give and receive love in a Christlike way. Plenty of them make excellent parents. There are many heterosexual couples who cannot physically fulfill the purpose of marriage under the church definition either, so let's stop using that argument. Love should be the defining characteristic of marriage. That is the answer. It always has been.
All I'm saying is that the LDS church sees marriage as something that isn't just about love. You can disagree about what marriage is about but my point is that calling Elder Nelson crazy for talking about a belief that in no way is meant to demean gays is no better than when people say gays will go to hell.
The real troubling thing is people use the common belief of the day to somehow prove the apostles of the Lord are wrong. Newsflash: the morality of what you see and hear in the media is very different than actual morality and the Lord’s revealed word. I know. Pick your jaw off the floor. If the Lord doesn’t read Slate before revealing his principles, perhaps we shouldn’t view God’s revelations through the filter of modern conventional wisdom.
Which principles of morality are you referring to mark? According to the lords revealed word to many prophets and apostles monogamy is evil and the root of the downfall of civilizations.
“Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious.”- Brigham young journal of discourses volume 11
“…the one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality; it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people.” -prophet john Taylor
“Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire….Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers…. Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it. ‘And is that religion popular in heaven?’ it is the only popular religion there,…”- Brigham young
“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans,…” -apostle orson Pratt
“We breathe the free air, we have the best looking men and handsomest women, and if they (Non-Mormons) envy us our position, well they may, for they are a poor, narrow-minded, pinch-backed race of men, who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought to be ashamed of such conduct, and the still fouler channel which flows from their practices; and it is not to be wondered at that they should envy those who so much better understand the social relations.”
– Apostle George A Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 291
So which is it….is it homosexuality that is immoral? Is it monogamy that is immoral? Funny that the message of the immortality of homosexuality is the same message that your leaders of the church gave for years and years on the issue of….wait for it….traditional, monogamic marriage….one man, one woman.
You sit here and argue that the lords revealed word has established the line of morality….funny that The Lord had such a different view of monogamy and morality just a short time ago by the men who were in direct communion with him on these all important issues. Before you go and start arguing how moral The Lord is go do some research on all the changes from the past.
Rest assured that in a short, not so distant future, that the lords chosen mouthpiece will receive some revelation declaring that The Lord has shed further light and knowledge on the issue of homosexuality and that homosexuality is no longer a sin. They will then do the same thing they did with the issues of blacks and the priesthood,,,,they will try to sweep the issue under the rug and pretend they were never hateful towards gays. And then, 30 years later another prophet will denounce all the evil, mindless bullshit that was said over the years about homosexuals. This is not inspiration….this is a bunch of old men who are stuck in their ways and unwilling to admit they are wrong. Quit arguing morality when it is not an issue of morality at all.
One-off comments are not the same thing as a gospel principle or an official position of the Church. You should know this, as you seem to spend every waking moment researching and commenting on the Church. What of the 90 percent of men in the faith at the time that were practicing monogamy? Were they under condemnation for doing so? No, so your point falls flat. There has, however, been a consistent position by both the modern and ancient Church on homosexuality. The words of modern prophets echo the Lords revealed word in the bible. You’ve said that the prophets are wrong that homosexuality is not a sin. What evidence do you have of this? A sin isn’t something that’s accepted as inherently bad by popular opinion. It’s decided by God, not the news, not what gets you up votes on Internet message boards, not the beliefs held by Hollywood stars. And God hasn’t changed His position for a long time.
Besides, if it’s not your belief system why do you spend so much time, effort and emotion on it? You seem rather upset by this. I meet people every day who don’t believe the same thing that I do and I don’t fly off the handle when someone says something I don’t agree with. I suggest you try it sometime.
Wow….just wow mark. I wish you would read what you write first. Let’s take a peek at what you have written. First of all you state that 90% of men were not practicing polygamy. Please cite your source. There is no source that is valid. And ultimately, if you actually believe in the prophets role then you also believe he speaks for The Lord. Based on the quotes given and many others that I can Lill out very easily we can very easily see that monogamy was a great evil in the sight of The Lord,
You stare there has been a consistent position bu the church both new and old on homosexuality. Please give me some evidence on this from the old church. You can find 2, maybe 3-4 scriptures in the entire old and New Testament that sort of address the issue of homosexuality….and even those are wishy washy at best. The savior himself never saw it an issue to address…so obviously it was super important to him wasn’t it. He did, however, address infidelity and divorce….but you just need to read between the lines to find where he might have inserted homosexuality as a sin as well. Can you please count for me how many prophets over a 4k year period of time spoke of this evil of homosexuality and please site your examples? I’ll be waiting here patiently for all your examples from which our modern prophets are drawing their knowledge,
I also love that you stated that god hasn’t changed his position for a long time. Apparently you forgot to read and study from the scriptures, both old and modern words of prophets, where it states god is unchanging…he is the same yesterday, today, and forever….and if he changes then he ceases to be god. So according to your very statement god has changed at some point and has ceased to be god.
You do a great job of judging me and stating that I am upset. I haven’t flown off the handle at all. It’s really great when Mormons get threatened by actual evidence and quotes that are given to them that they turn it around on the other person and accuse them of flipping out, getting upset, etc. Before you accuse me of being upset and getting to emotional and flying off the handle why don’t you go and do some research for yourself and quit spewing the same dribble that all the apologists give. The great thing is that I don’t have to spend my days trying to justify all the stuff that should never have to be justified.
Interesting then that not a single verse in the Book of Mormon, D&C or POGP even mentions homosexuality
Ok, are y’all ready for some moralizing? 🙂 Love, kindness, patience, respect, tolerance and, above all, humility are so essential, in this issue as in others, and especially in all human relationships. Though we all do it to some extent, we really must do our best to avoid judging others, and their motivations and intentions which we cannot know. The problem with this issue, as with so many others, is that people get passionate and then start saying things that are not helpful to understanding. Saying (or at least implying) that Church leaders are in “crazy-town,” simply because they defend traditional marriages and families, is not helpful, and starts things off poorly from the beginning. It makes Church members defensive. On the other hand, saying that LGBT people are sinners, or implying they are disgusting, simply because of who they are (which they can’t help), or condemning someone advocating the cause of our LGBT sisters and brothers, is also not helpful and makes those to whom those comments are directed feel defensive. All this shuts down communication, causes bad feelings, is hurtful to everyone, causes misunderstanding, and is full of pride. This applies to both sides of the issue – people on both sides of the debate are guilty of this. Respectful and humble communication, with love, leads to dialogue and increased understanding for all. We should all avoid pejorative and invective, which are most un-Christlike. Otherwise there is no understanding, and understanding is what we should all strive for. When we understand another person, we love them more. We usually hate or despise those we do not understand, which comes of fear, which is the opposite of faith and love. We must swallow our pride, and seek to understand with love. Can we please just strive to understand each other?
As for me, like anyone else who is straight, I cannot presume to ever fully understand my brothers and sisters who are LGBT, at least not experientially, nor what they go through. But I can strive to understand to the best of my ability. This is what Christ would have me do. And as I do so with love and humility, I believe the Spirit can teach me so that eventually I may understand all things (John 14:26; 2 Nephi 32:3, 5; Moroni 10:5). I do not believe gay marriage is the best answer, but I think I understand our gay and lesbian brothers’ and sisters’ desire for it. That desire is probably much the same as my desire for the wonderful heterosexual marriage I enjoy. And so I must fully confess I don’t know what the right answer is. It is right for me to follow the united voice of my Church leaders, whom I regard as prophets who speak for the Lord. They teach love, patience, tolerance, kindness and humility, always, but also have to stand firm (though in love) in what an all-loving and all-knowing God has commanded. Sometimes, that’s not an easy balance. But it is my faith, as it is theirs, that God’s commandments and doctrines are for the ultimate blessing and benefit of everyone, because He loves us. I have faith in that. One day, in our struggles, we will find the answers. In the meantime, let’s love each other, and have the humility to listen to each other and seek for understanding in respectful, kind ways. Nothing less can be expected of a disciple of Christ, whether that disciple is LGBT or straight or anything else.
I just want to ask, how have they ever taught love, patience, tolerance, kindness, or humility toward gay people? In any way, not just “always” as you stated. How have they shown it, or instructed us on how to show these traits to gay people? By saying just saying it and calling it good? What has the LDS church ever done, in action, to show the gay community they love and welcome them (certainly not Prop. 8 and their current opposition to gay marriage in Utah, and in general)? How is opposing civil gay marriages in any way showing them love, or wisdom, or somehow for their benefit to be restricted from having love, life, and families together? How is expecting gay people to remain celibate, and alone their entire lives with no hope, and no outlet to experience that love in any way kind, loving, humble, tolerant, and for their benefit?
It doesn’t take some otherworldly, superhuman, godly amount of wisdom to see the lack of love and tolerance in these teachings. It does, however, take humility to confront that what we want to believe, or what we do believe in may be wrong on a few things here or there.
Bottom line. Gay Mormons who stick with the church are miserable and suicidal. Gay Mormons who leave the church to find same sex relationships are happy and healthy. You decide which path really represents God’s plan of happiness.
Sorry, this response was aimed at Loran Blood
I don't disagree with all that you say, but I'd like to clarify one thing. Marriage in the temple is performed by civil authority and a civil marriage certificate is signed by all including witnesses as required by civil law. It is a civil binding contract until the end of their mortal lives or until legally dissolved (divorce). The priesthood authority is utilized to "seal" couples together in life after death. It is a binding contract when, and only when, it is ratified by the Holy Ghost. These are two separate things. You can be civilly (and legally) married by a justice of the peace (or a minister in a church or a bishop in his office) and then later be sealed by the priesthood in the temple – as I have been. Two separate things.
Don Bell Yes Don, but act in the temple, but the authority to preform a leagle marriage is given by the government and not the church. It is just a connusing situation that it is happening in the USA all in the Temple. We in the Churs only have authority about the Templemarriage by the pristhood as this is the only one we proform "WORLDWIDE" by the authority of god. That there are some countries like the USA where religiouse Leaders have been given also Authority by the government to preform that has nothing to do with the marriage in the procalmation or in any other churchtalk.
Well he has not told people out right to hate gay people, but think about the parents that have a gay son. He doesn't want to live alone and has a long term partner and now they marry to live together (remember that the USA is behind in giving right to gays, many other countries have this essential rights) If the Parents feel they need to "Defend marriage" and also want their son to life in a protected relationship it puts them a difficult situation.
The Problem Elder Nelson has is that he is not distinguishing between the Temple marriage as the one marriage we talk in church of, as it is the one given by God and preformed by Priesthood authority in the temple. The Gay Marriage is a governmental marriage and has nothing to do with the definition in the church of marriage. OUR marriage that we proclaim in the church is ABSOLUTY AND TOTALY PROTECTED. NO gay persons seeks a Temple marriage and that is what we talk in church. Elder Nelson and some others just like to make political marriage the same as Church marriage and that simply don't work. Gov. Marriage is not from god and is not substance of church, of any church in fact. Its government that needs to see witch groups he wants to protect and give benefits to and that has nothing to do with biology or church views but simple about social questions who needs protection and who need benefits, and if government finds good reason for ti it is legit. And no one can deny that gay couples need protection and government protects couples by a contract named "marriage". I hope that helped you understand the difference of the two things.
And I will no longer be silent. What he said is right on. Marriage is between man an women. Love us many things, just not marriage. We love all people, but do not condone sin.
I like your slip that marriage is between man and “women.” Yeah, traditional marriage like the church has “always” supported, right?
What he said is the traditions and bigotry/hatred of the natural man that has not been cast aside. We continue to pass this tradition on, only to harm ourselves, and those around us. The fruits of these teachings are very sour indeed. The divisiveness, and disgust they produce should be evidence enough that this is no teaching of a God of peace, and love.
Nothing says “I love my neighbor” more than judging them and telling them that fundamentally to the core who they are is a sin and a deception of satan. I don’t know why Christians seem to forget the 2nd greatest commandment almost all the time. They remember the commandment to love god and then completely forget the second commandment is to love thy neighbor. I guess somewhere in the footnotes, the small print, Jesus said something about judging others as a condition of the love.
the guilty take take the truth to be hard. societal embracing of homosexuality only means we are headed for destruction once again. Gay sex is not healthy spiritually or physically
The guilty do take the truth to be hard, and often resort to threats of destruction.
Love is healthy. Loving somebody that is gay is healthy. Being gay isn’t all about sex and all, it is about the same thing as being human. Finding love, companionship, and acceptance rather than being judged, cast out of the tribe, and threatened with destruction.
Thank you! I happened upon this site(regrettably) while checking out the OW site(another regret) and scrolled through it to see if it was worth my time, when I found this thread on Elder Nelson, an Apostle of The Lord, and knew right away I had little to gain by coming here too. Love your comments, but leaving disappointed in this media. I am learning to just stick with the scriptures and other uplifting sites like the Ensign and LDS.ORG.
He is a SPECIAL WITNESS OF JESUS CHRIST. I'm sure he knows Him and HIS Church quite well.
@Sam IAM: He is a special wittiness and we honer his calling, but he is not infallible and especially in talks that are given in public events. He is a man as Moses and David and Moroni and Nephi and Lehi and therefor capable of making mistakes. I believe he has good intentions but we as members are asked with good reasons to pray about every “Word we hear” to find out if it is from god or not. Read the first page of your BoM (the really first one). While many thinks where correct i feel that some parts in his talk where inspired by his personal feelings for this topic.
@Rob Tobiasson; I am not sure if i got your right. You believe Br. Nelosn to be right about his comments on marriage?
1. Marriage in Church: Elder Nellson fails to understand and mixes two facts. Marriage in church is preformed by Priesthood Authority and is preformed in the temple. That is the marriage before god we talk about and that is the marriage we proclaim in the church.
Marriage in front of the government is political topic and as such not part of the church. For the same reason we don't try to force other legislation against alcohol or tabacco.
2. Gay marriage: Gay marriage is a question of only governmental marriage, as far as i know no organisation ever asked the church to preform gay marriages in the temple by Priesthood authority. So gay marriage stays a political topic and as such is hardly a topic for church talks.
3. By our own teachings: Article of Faith 11, 12 and 13 all point us to a tolerance that our faith will only apply to us and that we expressively support other peoples right to do otherwise.
Gay sex is wrong but it will be so if married or not. So why would we care about marriage for them? because of Article 13! If we see good we like to improve it. Here we have a group that will life in "Sin" eigther way, but we can see if they have security to build a stable life and life values that we feel are important than that is a noble and good cause.
Feel free to reply to my post and if you like also over FB messenger.
@Loran Blood: I read your last respond here and see some arrows.
1. Yes he has the calling as an Apostle and we Honer the calling, but that doesn't make Brother Nelson or any other Apostle and Prophet infallible. You Can read that about Moses , David, Nephi, Moroni….. also first page of your BoM. That is why we are constantly ask to pray and get confirmation by the holy ghost. Especially our own history has shown us that Prophets have made fails statement in church talks and that the are men too. There callings just makes their talks worthy of testing and investigation, but not the word of god. That is why we only had two editions to D&C.
2. That he speaks in a university or any other public event is totally ok. But as this talks are not distributed to the church (like other countries) it is hardly church teaching and not to be considered more than a "nice Talk from a good Man".
3. He is in fact teaching the church stand for marriage, but fails to understand that "gay marraige is not touched by this topic.
Marriage in Church: Elder Nellson fails to understand and mixes two facts. Marriage in church is preformed by Priesthood Authority and is preformed in the temple. That is the marriage before god we talk about and that is the marriage we proclaim in the church.
Marriage in front of the government is political topic and as such not part of the church. For the same reason we don't try to force other legislation against alcohol or tabacco.
Gay marriage: Gay marriage is a question of only governmental marriage, as far as i know no organisation ever asked the church to preform gay marriages in the temple by Priesthood authority. So gay marriage stays a political topic and as such is hardly a topic for church talks.
And if you read Jesus teachings, he never lashed out on people like that.
4. The "options": From your forth option you offered, I have to understand that you don't really understand what it means. I see many gay Members how have put beside the natural man and are saints. But that doesn't made them straight or lessened their burden on how talks like that effect's them. The very high suicide rate of gay LDS is a very sad prove of that. To come up with phrases like that,.. it really doesn't help and leads to very dark ways.
5.By our own teachings: Article of Faith 11, 12 and 13 all point us to a tolerance that our faith will only apply to us and that we expressively support other peoples right to do otherwise.
Gay sex is wrong but it will be so if married or not. So why would we care about marriage for them? because of Article 13! If we see good we like to improve it. Here we have a group that will life in "Sin" eigther way, but we can see if they have security to build a stable life and life values that we feel are important than that is a noble and good cause.
So I see your concerns but I would ask you to talk to a gay Member or ex-member and ask him about his feelings ways to better understand how they feel and to overcome hollow phrases to really understanding of the teachings of Christ.
In love your Brother M. Schulze
P.S Listen to talks of Elder Uchdorf, he has a way to uplift people by teaching the gospel and not putting them down. He is remarkable in that way.
Martin Schulze You make a very good point that I have often pondered myself. There is a huge difference between temple marriage and government marriage. And even according to the church's teachings, people have free agency, so a gay couple should be able to practice their agency and be with each other. But you must look at what marriage has become since thousands of years of history. Marriage has always been incorporated with religion. In fact, religious marriage came first before government was ever involved. So when Elder Russel M. Nelson is talking about marriage, I interpret that he means marriage before it was so drastically changed by government, that we should defend "traditional" marriage and not split it's definition into two completely different meanings. May I add that there are ways of having a protected relationship without homosexual intimacy, which is the main reason most religions have a problem with homosexuality. It has nothing to do with one person loving and being in a safe and secure relationship with another. Two single roommates can have that kind of relationship without sexual intercourse. I'm not saying it is an easy path, but if celibacy is the only option for a homosexual who wishes to practice the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it is still possible to be happy. If you understand this, then you should understand that Elder Nelson has no intention of causing harm to homosexuals. If harm is caused, it is simply because Elder Nelson's message was misunderstood.