After taking another survey about being openly Gay and actively Mormon I felt the need to write a post for the RationalFaiths.com blog about what that means, how it happened and the reaction of various congregations I have come out to.
Perhaps you are reading this thinking that it is impossible to be both Gay and Mormon, that it is impossible to “serve two masters” or improbable to maintain y faith amidst my sexuality. I stand here to join my voice to the growing chorus of us who hold callings in our wards, who bring dates to Sunday School, and who have become Sassy Gay Friends to countless single sisters. We are here among you, even if you think we, like purple unicorns, don’t exist.
I came out to my ward in 2010 at a mutli-stake fireside in the DC/MD area on the pamphlet “God Loveth His Children” all about same-sex attraction and how David Pruden the president of Evergreen helped to write the resource book for bishops, parents and youth coming to terms with their sexuality. The organizers asked a group of guys with same-sex attraction for a volunteer Youth Speaker and hearing silence from the group I volunteered to tell my story before David Pruden spoke.
I told my story as I have many times before and since about struggling to find out what was Right, what was Truth, what the answer was for all and how relief came only when I changed and prayed to the Lord in the temple stating that I was ready to move forward only I lacked the direction to place my feet. Should I marry a woman, stay celibate, or physically castrate myself. It was in that moment at the SLC temple that I heard a distinct and undeniable voice tell me to search for a husband and prepare to adopt children.
After stating this over the pulpit I quickly moved onto the power of the atonement in our lives to calm the 3 stake presidents behind me so that they would not ask me to stop talking. And with that, 40 people in my ward knew and by the next week everyone was aware that not only did I like other guys, but that I planned on dating and finding a husband.
To many of my ward friends this was something new. They had to confront the mental image that they had in their minds filed away under the word “gay.” No longer could it be a gold-lame thong-clad bedazzled twink at San Francisco pride. No longer could they associate gay with pedophiles. They now had a new mental image, my smiling face that they had known for almost a year who sang in the choir, passed them the sacrament, and baked awesome cookies.
To many of them things shifted because it was their first (but certainly not last) encounter with a living breathing Gay Mormon. They now knew someone who was actively Mormon in the same ways that they were and yet who was open and unashamed about his sexuality.
For many in my ward (and in other wards I have since come out to) I have gained friends and allies. Voices who had no reason to speak up were raised in defense when a teacher or class member spoke degradingly about homosexuality. It has been truly inspiring to see young people in single adult wards stand up and support me even if they aren’t in full support of homosexuality or gay rights. To see members of the Church rally in support of their LGBT brothers and sisters as people while coming to terms with the politics of the issue separately has been wonderful.
Naturally I have had some pushback from some members who have pulled me aside and told me I need to repent, members who have told me that I am possessed by Satan, and members who cite a scripture out of context telling me that in Christ all things (including changing my sexuality) are possible. I have even had some leaders suggest electro-shock therapy (I quickly informed him that we were living in 2011 in San Francisco, so no thank you), or ask me to say I’m “hanging out” with guys instead of “dating them” (contrary to Elder Oaks’ advice to singles).
Overall my experience in young single adult wards outside of the Jello Belt has been positive. It has been positive enough that I felt comfortable demonstrating outside the Supreme Court last month with a sign reading “Gay Mormon for Marriage Equality.”
Let me leave those of you still in doubt about how I can be both Gay and Mormon with a quotation by a great man. “We go to the Bars because the Churches are hostile to us.” Harvey Milk, the first openly-gay elected politician said these words and I believe that they are still true, I have been lucky enough to see members of my church stop being hostile towards LGBT members and it causes the miraculous to happen. I am welcomed and valued in the ward as David Baker, both Gay and Mormon.
David Baker
David Baker grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah. He spent the better part of 3 years struggling to accept his sexuality as a part of his life instead of continually repressing it. The repression took the form of Evergreen-supported counseling to try to change his orientation, deep depression, and a suicide attempt. Graduating with a Bachelor of Science in Political Science from the University of Utah, David moved out to Washington DC. He now serves as a digital strategist to political campaigns and interest groups and enjoys every gut-wrenching moment of it because of the joy it brings. In the little spare time he has you can find David reading a biography, playing video games, volunteering, or following the Savior’s personal call to search for a husband.
All posts by David Baker
this is interesting story and I am surprised if to be honest concern of your answer in temple and I am member of the church too and I have a guy and I am in stress sometimes and feeling not good concern of topic gay issue, and I am glad that God did answer you, I would like that I receive some answer too that having that guy is right despite that if I am correct I felt something good things when I think about him!!! and if to be honest I’m afraid that God will tell me not!!! is not right! :)) and also I had received patriarchal blessing despite that I know it’s my choice to accept but anyway I’m gay!!! and not only attracted to same sex gender!!! but good luck for you!!!
Great. Just great. Thanks for sharing this very cool story.
Nothing you say changes the fact that the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve signed the Proclamation on the Family which states: “the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.” Likewise, For the Strength of Youth states: “Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin.” What you describe yourself doing certainly counts as homosexual behavior, and you are promoting a cause that is not in agreement with church teachings.
While your local leaders have given you time to repent of this on your own (assuming they are aware of your actions), that is a temporary situation and the day will come when you will have to choose between full fellowship in the church and living a gay lifestyle.
“the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.” – I don’t think he will be procreating!! 😉
Is for the strength of the youth doctrine? Is the Proclamation? Have we voted on it in conference? Is it a part of our canon? No. Have our views on gays changed last year? Yes they have. Lets not be so certain about our beliefs – especially since we haven’t canonized anything you referenced
http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies/21.4#214
Handbook 2:
Administering the Church
Section 21.4 – Policies on Moral Issues
Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction
21.4.6 Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction
Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance.
If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ, the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth.
While opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.
If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances.
21.4.10 Same-Gender Marriages
As a doctrinal principle, based on the scriptures, the Church affirms that marriage between a man and a woman is essential to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
Sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife. Any other sexual relations, including those between persons of the same gender, are sinful and undermine the divinely created institution of the family. The Church accordingly affirms defining marriage as the legal and lawful union between a man and a woman.
———-
Homosexual behavior is sin, not just gay sex. That is the official position of the church, given by the prophet and apostles acting within their divine calling. Trying to find an excuse to dismiss it is the path to apostacy. You can’t honestly say you sustain them when you reject their leadership when it isn’t pleasing to you personally.
And as for the church ‘changing it’s position’ I don’t see that, I think it’s more members coming into line with where the church has always been. I knew a young man (early 20’s) back in the mid 70’s who came and lived on my parents farm over the summer working for them. I shared my bedroom with him and he was like a big brother to me. He was also the Scout leader in the Branch.
Years later I found out that he was gay, and the real reason he came to live with us that summer was because his non-member parents threw him out when they found out he was gay and so the Branch President asked my Dad if he would take him in for a while.
Hey Ryan, a couple of things.
1. Strength for Youth and Proclamation are not revelations as Oct. 2010 general conference pointed out. You seemed to concede that point in going for the Handbook but wanted to make that point clear
2. While it is possible for the policies in the Church Handbook to change (as they are policies and not doctrines) lets work on the assumption that this is NOT one of those cases (see 1978 Priesthood Ban).
Can you define for me “Homosexual Behavior?” Does it mean gay sex? Most would say yes, but you seem to have taken it beyond that by stating “Homosexual behavior is sin, not just gay sex.” So I ask you to define “homosexual behavior” because nowhere in the Handbook or the Bishop’s Handbook or even the BYU Honor code office is “homosexual behavior” defined.
Is it a hug? a handshake? a kiss? pre-marital intertwining of digitals? a date? speaking out in favor of gay rights? Where is it defined or like the Supreme Court and “porn” is it simply “You know it when you see it?”
As any lawyer will tell you, the problem with having vague phrasings and lack of definitions is that it leaves a policy wide open to (mis)interpretations and lets people run wild with them (as you seem to have done) so I ask again can you give me both yours and the official church definition of “homosexual behavior” and all that that phrase entails?
The Handbook is not a legal code. Don’t use it to try and ‘lawyer’ your way to justification of something that is obviously contrary to the principles it lays out.
Paul, it looks like I can’t reply to your question directly. But the Handbook, while not legal code, is policy not doctrine. It is a guide to administering the church, not to the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a distinct difference that is made glaring by pointing out the lack of a definition of “homosexual behavior.”
Is it better to live a lie and marry a lady and both be unhappy than to be open to your self and others??? how many divorces are really the result of one of the partners being gay.every read a community history book of a Mormon community and see the many many divorces list in the family stories. or any religious region other than Mormon
We remember; the president Kimball said: Heart is a muscle on which our mind has dominion, we can do it feel things that we want to feel. If you went to temple and “felt a answer from the Lord” was a thing or a feeling that you wanted to feel. The Lord never gives us an answer against his own doctrine or his commandments, He would cease to be God if He don’t keep his laws. Then that answer is not divine, only is your wish. It is impossible to be active LDS with a recomendation to be both time gay.
Hi Ruben,
I talk about this more in-depth in my podcast on Mormon Stories found here.
The short answer is that this actually does happen and is one of the first major stories anyone reading the Book of Mormon has to encounter. Nephi was taught from youth the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill” and then he was ordered to break that commandment by an angel of the Lord. Additionally many commandments once given have been fulfilled (isn’t Bacon amazing?) and so God’s doctrine can and has changed without God ceasing to be God.
I encourage you to take a listen to my story though as I talk about this a little bit more in-depth, particularly how I know this wasn’t my own feelings or Satan.
I cried at the beauty of this post. Then I read the comments and want to punch Paul in the nuts. I am married with 3 children and Mormon. I support you 100000000000000%
You really want to do that? Just because I lay out accuracy and clearly what the position of the church is and point out that he needs to make a choice? Responding with anger and a desire for violence is what I see from Laman, Lemuel, King Noah, and lots of other unsavory characters in the BoM. Perhaps you should reconsider your words.
I married in the temple about 25 years ago soon after my mission and we have 6 kids but I don’t see how stuff like that that has any bearing on the validity of one’s view.
Thank you for your support, but we shouldn’t even think about punching people like Paul. That is not a Christlike attitude as he would have turned the other cheek. Additionally Paul strongly believes his position for a variety of reasons. We might think that he is wrong but that shouldn’t make us want to stop listening to his POV, be any less tolerant than what we ask for, or hurt him.
Again thank you for your tears and being such an awesome ally!
This Post Is So Borhersome To Me! God Would Never Give Revelation To Anyone Contrary To The Teachings Of The Prophet! This Is A Big Fail David, Try again! Have You Heard Of Josh Weed? Jish Weed Is A True Example Of Being Gay And Active In The Mormom Church. This Isn’t RationalFaith, This Is RationalizingYour Faith. So Frustrated That You Would Try To Attemp To Confuse Gods Children Into Believing This To Be True.
More like ‘rationalize your sins’.
More like “I Don’t Know How To Type Because I Capitalize Everything Like a Seven Year Old”, am I right?
Hi Denise,
Josh Weed will be the first to tell everyone that his way is not for everyone. I also make it a point to let others know that this was a “personal” revelation and is one way in which I live my faith and my sexuality just as Josh’s is another way. I encourage you to give a listen to my full story from my own words here.
Denise, while I understand your concerns about David’s story, and likely share the core reservations of your position, responding with judgmental words is not in line with how the Savior has directed us to behave. Demanding conformity to the way of living of one person who has experienced same-gender attraction and declaring that it is the right decision for everyone with SGA is not what the Lord has publicly declared. I see nothing wrong with expressing your belief and understanding that homosexual behavior/marriage is contrary to the teachings of the Church (I share this understanding of the Lord’s teachings), but when judging enters the picture, a line has been crossed that Jesus Himself directed us to not cross.
David, thank you for writing this post. I’m truly sorry that there are commenters on here who feel the need to condem the light and insight you’ve received. It is such an arrogant mindset when one feels he has the obligation to point out another’s ‘imperfections’.
The solutions your critics offer are at best woefully inadequate, and at worst incredibly damaging. Thank you again. I wish you great happiness.
David, I loved this post and I would love it if I had the chance to talk to you face to face to ask you the million questions I have and to talk about the chaos that is in my head when it comes to the Church view on homosexuality, because you seem so calm and so positive about it. While I’m glad you found yourself in a community that has embraced you and allowed you to be you (Mormon AND gay) I do read the quotes posted by Paul as the OFFICIAL position of the Church and that opens up a huge can of worms for me. As for the “God will not give revelation contrary to the position of the Church”, I’ve seen that happen over and over, bringing to the Gospel amazingly strong souls. The fact that the Church position on gay marriage is what it is right now, does not mean it won’t be different in 10, 50, or 100 years from now. David’s revelation comes from the same place where all of his other personal revelations came from. I don’t understand why we are so ready to accept personal revelation when it falls in line with what we believe but quickly dismiss it as the seeker’s will (or even worse Satan – as if he was the one whose voice is heard in the Temple!) when it doesn’t. If you want to gripe about David’s personal revelation, take it up with God, since He is the One who answered to David’s pleading.
Even if the church’s position was going to change to match David’s in X number of years, the fact is that David has an obligation to live according to what the church and the living prophet and apostles teach us to do now. That is the obligation he is under.
God’s house is a house of order, and anybody can claim that they commit any sin and excuse it as saying at some future time the church will be OK with it so it’s OK now too. It doesn’t work that way.
Nor is the temple some kind of magical safe house where Satan is unable to influence or deceive people. If that were so how do anti-Mormons manage to smuggle recording equipment in now and then?
You should be bothered by David’s story for the fact that it is very true that God will not give a revelation that is contrary to what the leaders of the church are telling us. Either David is honestly mistaken about the source of his experience (and as I said before, it being inside the temple is irrelevant), or he is not telling things as they really are. There are a number of times where the leaders of the church have specifically taught that any such ‘revelation’ that contradicts what is coming from the brethren is not from God.
And for those of you who want to hate on me for what I’m posting. I hope some day you realize that there is nothing loving about supporting somebody up in their sins, and there is nothing hateful in speaking truth to a wayward soul.
Paul I agree that people hating you for your posting is so not cool. As for your point about Satan being unable to influence us in the temple because Anti-Mormons bring recording equipment in I say that those are 2 separate and distinct events.
In the 1st, mortal men are influenced outside of the temple to do something inside of it. and in the 2nd, Satan’s spirit actually enters into the temple to tempt and prompt worthy members directly. These are very distinct things and so unless you have a different example of why the personal revelation being in the temple not mattering re: satan then the temple aspect is still relevant.
Additionally I talk about this in-depth on my <a href="http://gaymormonstories.org/028-david-baker-pt-1-on-being-kicked-out-of-byu-gaining-a-testimony-and-attempting-suicide/"Mormon Stories Podcast, specifically I talk about how I came to know and understand how this was not something I came up with on my own, or influenced by Satan, and was meant for me and not for all people.
I have an obligation to follow Heavenly Father even if that is contrary to what the Church’s teachings state. As I said in my comment above to Ruben, there are multiple scenarios in which this is the case. (Nephi & Laban, Paul & Kosher).
My “excuse” is not that the church might receive some future revelation but that I am following what God told me to in the most powerful, undeniable way he could. I was told that I needed to seek a Husband and prepare to adopt children. Is it not conceivable that God did give me this revelation to stave off a second suicide attempt in which I would have succeeded fully intending me to keep my covenants as I “Searched & prepared” but didn’t necessarily “find”? That is just one of many possible interpretations to which my personal revelation is not as untrue as you seem to think it to be.
“False prophets and false teachers are also those who attempt to change the God-given and scripturally based doctrines that protect the sanctity of marriage, the divine nature of the family, and the essential doctrine of personal morality. They advocate a redefinition of morality to justify fornication, adultery, and homosexual relationships. Some openly champion the legalization of so-called same-gender marriages.”
— Elder M. Russel Ballard, Oct 1999 General Conference
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/10/beware-of-false-prophets-and-false-teachers?lang=eng
“But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil… ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil” (Moroni 7:17) This ‘revelation’ was to persuade you to commit sin, it is not of God.
Don’t take this as an accusation, but anybody can make up any story they want claiming personal revelation to do justify their favorite sin and claim it came to them in the temple. Any person can be honestly deceived, or willingly deceived, that God approves of the sin they love. Satan can mislead even the elect, and there is nothing said anywhere that suggests this can’t happen in the temple or any other location.
I look at the standards laid out to tell true revelation from false revelation and yours fails the test by a long shot. The Nephi/Laban story is not a counterexample. Not all killing is sin, and God has every right to command somebody be killed. Nephi was not commanded to sin, was called by God to be Laban’s executioner. God made the judgement that Laban should die, not Nephi. What you are promoting is no different than somebody saying they got a person revelation that they should seek out polygamous wives, or got God’s OK to have an affair. It just isn’t going to happen.
And it is false to suggest there is any kind of difference between following Heavenly Father and following what the Church teaches. God will hold you accountable for your obedience to what the Church teaches. If you reject the council of the prophet and apostles, you are rejecting He who called them to lead you in these matters.
As I said before, at some point you are going to have to make a choice to either leave the church to continue your homosexual quest for a husband, or you will have to conform to the standards of the church and abandon all homosexual behavior. Please for your own sake don’t stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.
Paul, I agree with you totally. What happened in the minds of another ones? The Gospel is clear God does not change never. It is not same Nephi and Laban when the angel said that to kill him. david and many people must study so well that history. With the Holy Ghost, but not with a ghost diferent…
Oh, I forgot to say that I’m straight, happily married with 4 kids…. does it give my opinion more credibility?!?! Why are we sharing our sexual orientation and marital status at the end of our posts? Just a curiosity…
Beats me but it seemed important to Sammi.
The Handbook is the instructions from the First Presidency to the leadership of the church on how the doctrines and principles of the gospel are to be applied, and when it says X is sin, that is the law of the church that members are obligated to sustain and obey or face the listed consequences. Following the prophet doesn’t mean you limit yourself to what has been canonized, you accept they say to the church while acting in their office as prophetic counsel. That includes both what they say in General Conference, official proclamations, and official publication such as FtSoY and the Handbook. You do not have the option of setting it aside and claiming an exemption for yourself except as an act of rebellion against God.
Wanting a list of what is and is not homosexual behavior is a very law of Moses approach. This is a church of teaching principles, not checklists that will never cover every situation. You know yourself what behaviors of yours are motivated by homosexual urges and what ones are not, and in most cases it is pretty obvious to others as well. Would a hetrosexual man seek a husband? No. Would they date another man seeking romantic attachment to them? No. Those are homosexual behaviors.
Your bravery is inspiring and I wish the best in your search for your husband and children! Although the road to parenthood may be challenging for you never let the judgement of others question your right and worthiness to a family on your terms. I believe you will make an amazing father and any child would be fortunate to have such a loving, open, and COURAGEOUS parent.
I commend you for your bravery in the way you handle your life. You have my utmost respect!! You are truly amazing and honoring yourself and your spirit. Bless you!
PS I’m with you Sammi. Punch.
Paul, if a worthy member of the church, standing in a holy place, feelings the feelings that he has been thought to recognize as coming from the Holy Ghost cannot trust those feelings, then we cannot trust ANY answer, any promptings we ever receive. I can testify first hand that God does occasionally answer prayers in a way that is contrary to what is taught in Church and that does not make His house less a house of order, because He doesn’t do it because He is capricious. David is talking about PERSONAL revelation, he is not claiming that this is the path God wants any gay member of the church to follow. This is David’s journey. The reason for it is not given to us, but we don’t know what He knows, we don’t have His perspective. Maybe as David has mentioned it is to prevent him from attempting to take his life again, maybe, who knows it might be because the family that David will build will be a safe haven for a child who might have otherwise had a terrible life. I think you like to think of a God who is the rule enforcer, I’d rather see Him as a loving, caring, concerned Father, one that puts His children’s well being before ANY rule. After all, as a parent, have you ever gone against the rules you set in your family for the well being and the happiness of one of your kids?
The leaders of the church and the scriptures give us clear guidance that revelations from God will not encourage us to do evil, to sin. True revelations will not contradict what the prophet and apostles tell us. The revelation he claims run counter to that, proving itself to be a false revelation.
Now I don’t know if he is honestly mistaken or a wolf in sheep’s clothing, it doesn’t really matter. The important fact is that his revelation fails a very important test and he should reject it himself because of that. You can trust any revelation or prompting that encourages you to do good, Moroni 7 speaks a lot how to discern between false and true promptings.
I understand what you are saying but how can you be so categorical in saying that it NEVER happens, when we have an example right there in the scriptures?
How do you explain Nephi being prompted to kill Laban while he was sleeping. That’s braking a pretty major commandment! Does that make sense to you because you can see the whole story? Isn’t that an exception to the rule? I don’t want to argue with you (I have a feeling that we could go on and on and our respective opinions would stay the same), I’m just trying to understand your thought process.
In the past 3 years I’ve learned so much about the importance of personal revelation. I think because of my trials (hardships? issues? life?) I’ve come to have a small understanding of how being Christlike means being compassionate and truly truly loving others unconditionally. Makes me wonder what Christ would think of some of the comments on this post.
Anyway, appreciate your perspective and ability to handle different types of reactions.
Go Mormons!
I’m afraid what I am going to say will be taken wrongly. But I’m going to try. If you read this all the way through, and bear in mind my political leanings, then maybe it won’t be taken the wrong way.
I’m a libertarian; I believe in leaving people alone. I know that’s not the common philosophical/political view for LDS, but I don’t believe marriage should be regulated by government, so marriage for anyone is a non-issue. Making it into an issue, either way, in my opinion, is just wasting time and money that could be spent feeding hungry children. But I know that there are fewer libertarians in the church than there are neo-conservatives or even progressives–
I admire someone who wants to feed hungry children; there are plenty of them in the world.
But–
Someone close to me suffers from an illness caused by chemical poisoning–(and looks very normal, by the way)
and has been shunned, because chemicals are considered by most in *our* faith to be ‘sacred’; chemical company CEOs donate a lot of money–
*ahem*
I’m neither a progressive who hates free enterprise, though I don’t believe corporations are, ever, the embodiment of free enterprise–nor a neo-conservative/social conservative who believes that the worst sin in the world is the sin of passion; I frankly believe that trusting in mammon and destroying human life (through wars and experimentation) is pretty high on the list for sins–
and ignoring the pleas of hungry children–
So, what does this have to do with the OPer?
It’s his choice as to what he does–adopting children, etc. It’s not my business.
I don’t happen to believe that those children would be worse off in a home like the one he plans to build than they would in many other situations–it’s a case-by-case basis, and any children being born into the world today (maybe at any time) are taking pot-luck.
of course, it’s not the ideal, but the idea that there is any ideal in our present world is ludicrous.
My loved one who suffers horrific illness from chemical poisoning–back to why I brought that up–
Same sex attraction has always been ‘around’–but it is increasing. Recently on a Mormon blog I read a post by a mother who had worked with agricultural chemicals before her pregnancies with several boys; most of her boys are homosexual–she wrote, “this wasn’t caused by something *I* did in raising my boys; it was something that was done TO me and to them”–
She was angry about that, about the chemicals–nobody responded to her; can’t ‘touch’ chemicals in a discussion where mostly conservatives are found–
this is the kind of thing:
A review of current research shows that there is no evidence supporting a social cause for homosexuality [8, 9]. On the contrary, there are multiple studies, both with animals and humans, demonstrating the causative relationship with the pre-natal testosterone during a critical stage in “defeminization”.
What causes that? Not enough testosterone. What causes that? Too much estrogen. How would an embryo get too much estrogen?
Estrogens from petrochemicals–
There you have it. Why aren’t *we* fighting this? Why aren’t *we* outraged? EVEN IF YOU ARE ALREADY A VICTIM. I know that the victims have to deal with it. I’ve watched my loved one be shunned and blamed, because he/she cannot enter certain buildings or be around most people. In some places the church building has been certifiably toxic, and yet it is my loved one who is blamed–not the chemicals. And NOT the men who profit from their proliferation.
Likewise, homosexuals are blamed, when the pollutions greedy corporations have unleashed upon the earth–affect them during critical pre-natal times.
These chemicals are NOT needed; everything petrochemical has a healthier alternative from plants–but the petrochemical industry makes too much money for the warmongers and others, so it can’t be stopped.
So the ‘hate’ towards homosexuals? I don’t understand it; I never have. It’s the same kind of thing that happens whenever there is a war; intolerance for those who are perceived as the ‘enemy’. Some people just don’t/can’t think beyond group think.
As for homosexuality, I admire those who can remain celibate if they don’t marry, whatever their sexual disposition–
BUT why does this society not acknowledge the source of the violence done towards the unborn, not just in causing homosexuality, but in SO many other things–and, yes, there are many other things–
they are called xeno or faux estrogens or estrogenics (I’ve been studying it, but my findings are not complete, so please don’t call me on this, if I’ve left something out), and they are potent, and they are found in and come from:
paints, glues, fabrics, gasoline and all other oil products, cleaners, personal care products, building materials, agricultural chemicals (some of the worst)–
and some of the most prominent men even in our church have grown wealthy from peddling these monstrous pollutions–
and *we* as a group of mostly conservative (social/neo) people “hate” those who are victims of this? Whether they are a person with chemical poisoning, a five year old with an endocrine disease from disrupters or a person with same sex attraction! By the way, all of these people are going to “LOOK” *normal*, whatever that means. Chemicals have a way of doing that–silent destroyers.
Why not fight it, my brothers and sisters? So that more young people don’t have to deal with this? At least call it what it is–
and stop pretending it’s not hurting people–
Being concerned about the environment and toxic products that are extant and bloated corporations isn’t usually a popular topic for LDS, I know. (I know)
I know my opinion has little to do with what the OP has stated. His business is his business; again, the libertarian in me believes that agency is sacred, and I am sick to death of the social conservatives among my people who want to frame more laws about one thing or another–
but I wish that more of *us* cared more about what is happening to the unborn, because it’s only going to get worse for everyone–
and not just with regards to sexual development in the unborn–
it will cause problems in so many untold ways–
there are toddlers and pre-schoolers and elementary-aged children all over, mostly, the U.S. who are suffering from various scary endocrine disorders, and there is an awakening mob of mothers who realize that they were lied to by everyone (medical practitioners, corporations that sell household products, the government)–who carried these babies and who now realize what has happened. It’s a little bit more socially acceptable for these mothers to complain about the illnesses their children have than for mothers like the woman on the Mormon blog who knows that those agricultural chemicals hurt her boys, who now all have fallout; she loves her boys; she’s supportive of them, by the way, but she’s disappeared from the Mormon blogosphere–
I sense that many LDS are ‘waking up’ to a lot of things; maybe it’s time to begin to explore this highly controversial area–
stop patting these chemical entrepreneurs on the backs and look for safer ways to do things–
I can tell you that the real persecution (accusations of mental illness and lack of faith are only part of it) that people who have experienced chemical poisoning in the church are happening–
but I realize that the pain of social rejection for the young men who have ‘inherited’ same sex attraction is even greater–
I know that’s not what this OP/discussion is about, but maybe looking at things a little differently will help everyone; the truth does make *us* free–
we are all victims together–
showing some interest in the cause of all this may cause
a little less agony on the part(s) of those men, especially, who have had this disruption occur in utero–since unborn males do seem more vulnerable–
the idea of the ‘victim’ being blamed is ancient–and blaming the victim is not what happens in spiritually enlightened cultures–
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this aman, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the aworks of God should be made bmanifest in him.
If anyone misunderstands what I am saying, may I urge that the owners of this blog show me how I can delete this? It is not my wish to cause anyone any pain–
Dear LDSDPER – what you just wrote has been heard by an LDS mother whose heart is racing right now! My good friend has two gay sons and she is a cleaning fanatic – not OCD but close to it. I wonder if that is what happened with her boys? I also have libertarian leanings – my LDS mind is based on the tenant of FREE AGENCY! David, if you are ever in Mesa, AZ – come to church with me – and bring your hubby and kids, I’ll help babysit 🙂
David, thank you so very much for sharing your story. It is beautiful to me in so many ways. May I ask one question that does not have an agenda. I am wondering if the plan is to marry and then be celibate or if sex is part of the plan. Hope that is OK to respectfully ask.
David, I am curious about what changes you feel the church should make to its doctrine and theology to accommodate your personal revelation? What do you believe the church doctrine should be 50 years from now with respect to gay marriage? Should the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and exaltation include those who are eternally sealed to their same sex partner? Do you believe that this should happen or is the same sex marriage covenant only intended to be for life only? I would very much appreciate your opinion on this subject. You are quite a pioneer in this area. The church doctrine and theology has evolved and developed line upon line..precept upon precept. Many revelations came in response to questions and concerns. Maybe your concerns may lead to further revelation, but it may take a while given the fairly recent “The Family and Proclamation to the World”. I hope and pray that in the meantime you can follow the leadership and put off your intentions. Change may take a while if it is at all forthcoming. May the Lord bless you and guide you!
Well
Sorry about that! Phone problems. I really admire you for making this post despite opposition! You are an inspiration for many people who are afraid to be themselves for fear of being “unworthy.” But you follow Christ and that is great! I’m sure when you get up there, He will tell you how proud He is of you for keeping the commandments to the best of your ability and staying true to this gospel!:)
P.S. I am unmarried, waiting for a missionary, and leaving on my own mission in 22 days 🙂
Not all killing is sin. The scriptures are clearly for capital punishment, killing in self defense etc. What happened to Laban was not murder, it was an execution and God was the judge and jury (as is His right). If Nephi did it on his own initiative, THAT would have been a sin, but God is well within his right to order the death of somebody, or even a whole nation.
Homosexual behavior doesn’t have any exception to it, it is ALWAYS a sin. What David is saying happened utterly fails to pass the test of being a valid revelation. His emotional reaction to it is not what makes it valid, I’m sure that Hiram Page really believed the false revelations that came to him, but they were still false.
From an official statement by the First Presidency of the Church in 1913:
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“From the days of Hiram Page (Doc. and Cov., Sec. 28), at different periods there have been manifestations from delusive spirits to members of the Church. Sometimes these have come to the men and women who because of transgression became easy prey to the Arch-Deceiver. At other times people who pride themselves on their strict observance of the rules and ordinances and ceremonies of the Church are led astray by false spirits, who exercise an influence so imitative of that which proceeds from a Divine source that even these persons, who think they are ‘the very elect,’ find it difficult to discern the essential difference. Satan himself has transformed himself to be apparently ‘an angel of light.’
“When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration, convey something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities , Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. … In secular as well as spiritual affairs, Saints may receive Divine guidance and revelation affecting themselves, but this does not convey authority to direct others, and is not to be accepted when contrary to Church covenants, doctrine or discipline, or to known facts, demonstrated truths, or good common sense.
(Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose, “A Warning Voice,” Improvement Era, Sept. 1913, pp. 1148–49.)
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I speak with surety and boldness because I know I am standing on rock here. It IS a false revelation, and I say that based on what the prophets have taught about how to recognize them. There is not one prophet in all of history who would view what David describes as a valid revelation.
Although I don’t share your opinion, I have to say that I like the fact that you are standing up for what you believe is right.
As I said we have to agree to disagree and leave it at that: you strongly believe in your position and I strongly believe in mine. I’m grateful that we were able to defend our point of view in a civil manner. It happens rarely nowadays… especially on the internet. Best of luck in all you do, brother Paul!
I really don’t see it as a matter of one opinion vs another opinion. The words of the leaders of the church are very clear on this. I hope you all will listen to them. It is good that it was a civil discussion though. Take care.